Any one have experience with recent upgrades to HVAC

[Romer]

Still contemplating the HVAC change as both my HVAC systems are still working, not in any hurry. I am going to wait until January for the new 2023 incentives come out to get quotes in case that impacts them.

My Backup Battery system right now runs the furnace but not the AC. So I would have to make changes if I wanted a Heat pump for heat in a Dual Fuel system. At least I think so.

The Simplest change would bee a new Furnace and more efficient AC. One of my AC's is a 10 SEER and the other is a 13 SEER

Something I have been searching but can't find an answer to, Does a 20 SEER AC and a 20 SEER Heat pump use the same amount of electricity in the summer?

I believe I would see a significant reduction with a 20 SEER AC in electricity in the summer. These systems currently use 40-50 kWh's extra on a hot day then in the spring

Using a Heat pump in a dual fuel system for heat would reduce Gas usage , but increase electricity usage as I understand it

My overall goal is to reduce Electricity usage to help offset an EV when we eventually get one

Anyone know the answer to my question above?

another question is I think I can run a Heat Pump as just an AC and have the option to change that later, but I don't know if that is true. Anyone know the answer to that

I will of course discuss with contractors when I get several quotes in a few months. I am wanting to define what options I want quoted

 

[satchel]

It's been a long time since I installed AC systems, but unless things have changed fundamentally, there shouldn't be a difference in the electricity cost between 20 seer AC and 20 seer heat pump assuming all else equal. They should operate exactly the same in AC mode, while the HP has the ability to operate in reverse for heat.

 

[gungriffin]

I don't know your situation, but most of the Inflation Reduction Act subsidies are income based now. They are based on median area income. The subsidies look like they go to almost zero after 150% of median area income.

If you find a contractor that isn't taking you to the cleaners, post them up here. I am getting INSANE quotes for a new furnace and condenser.

I have gotten a quote for a dual fuel setup that is a 2 ton cold climate heat pump with a 80,000 BTU 96% nat gas furnace at anything from 19k-27k. The quotes will be higher next year. One of the more chatty installers said they expect all of the HP suppliers to pass along large cost increases as the national subsidies kick in next year. The installers will be even more busy. Especially with the Denver subsidies renewing at the start of the year for a few days until they run out of money.

The quotes are so high that I am going to do the install myself. The key with heat pumps is the cold climate feature. Those HPs can offer heat efficently down to the negative 20s Farenheit or so. I am going with the Mr Cool 2/3 ton system with a electric coil backup heater. It will be about 4k for all of the parts to swap out the air handler, coil backup, line set and condenser. It is an odd system because it is both a 2 and 3 ton condenser. It is simply a setting that is swapped out on the air handler. There is also a 4/5 ton that is the same thing. It heats at an efficiency of at least 50% at -22 f. That had me sold. The linesets also screw in and come pre charged so there is no R410A that needs to be added to the system. That at least puts it in a grey area for HVAC licenses being needed. Here are some links:

MRCOOL Universal Series DC Inverter Split System | MRCOOL

Advanced DC Inverter Technology. The MRCOOL Universal Series - Up to 20 SEER Central Heat & Air Systems

mrcool.com

https://mrcool.com/wp-content/dox_repo/mc-uni-perf-ss-en-01.pdf

amazon.com/Universal-Central-Precharged-Connect-Lineset/dp/B08512NLJ7


You might even be able to use your old furnace/air handler with the Mr Cool universal. That would effectively give you a dual fuel system for only the cost of the Mr Cool system.

I am using loadcalcs.net to get me a Manual J, Manual D and a Manual S. They charge by the square foot. My cost is $326 to get all of the items I need to set up the system. The Manual J is to size the HVAC system. The manual D is to diagram the ducts and to ensure even room heat and airflow. The manual S is to review the equipment I want will work to the spec of the J and D.

 

[Romer]

Looks interesting. ACE Hardware here sells it, no installers on their map though.

Be interested to see how that works for you

Everything being on 240V along with the start up surge power would determine if it could be on my Battery back up

 

[DanInDenver]

On the MrCool is it the DIY version? Is the warranty in affect if you don’t have a licensed HVAC install?
I’m looking at adding a minisplit to add to existing traditional HVAC. Garage and an addition that I can’t get venting to.
Either Mitsubishi hyper heat or MrCool 4th gen DIY.
Mitsubishi warranty specifies a licensed HVAC install to get the full warranty.

 

[gungriffin]

Looks interesting. ACE Hardware here sells it, no installers on their map though.

Be interested to see how that works for you

Everything being on 240V along with the start up surge power would determine if it could be on my Battery back up

I believe that it doesn't have much surge on startup. They are a seriously smart company. If it does have a startup surge, you can get devices that will help to limit the surge to allow you to use it with a backup.

I asked their customer service about a local installer, but they don't have one. I plan to do a post about my reno when I get further in. It has been really rough, but I have just been rolling with the punches. I have learned so many great workarounds and fixes though.

On the MrCool is it the DIY version? Is the warranty in affect if you don’t have a licensed HVAC install?
I’m looking at adding a minisplit to add to existing traditional HVAC. Garage and an addition that I can’t get venting to.
Either Mitsubishi hyper heat or MrCool 4th gen DIY.
Mitsubishi warranty specifies a licensed HVAC install to get the full warranty.

It is not the DIY version. That is a mini split and this is a ducted unit with an air handler. That said, they sell the precharged line like with the DIY version essentially making this a DIY option. When I called customer service, they said you get 10 year parts only no matter who does the install. This is contingent on registering the unit in the first ~30 days from purchase. I plan to run the 4th gen Mr Cool mini split in my garage. It is almost the same product as the Universal ducted option. I plan on doing Mr Cool because the reviews all seem to be great and their price is about as low as it is possible to obtain for a quality product.

Mr Cool also has mini split options that can have multiple fan/evap units per condenser. https://mrcool.com/diy-4th-generation-multi-zone/

 

[gungriffin]

Looks interesting. ACE Hardware here sells it, no installers on their map though.

My plan is to order it through either Amazon or HVACDirect.com

I need a 35' line set and I cannot get that through Amazon. They only sell the 25' and the 50'.

www.amazon.com/Universal-Central-Precharged-Connect-Lineset/dp/B08512NLJ7

2 Ton 20 SEER MRCOOL Universal Series Heat Pump System

The MRCOOL Universal Unitary Heat Pump system is an easy to install, full size air handler with a slim condenser, suitable for most 2-3 ton applications. This system is incredibly flexible, combining the ultimate in ducted comfort and easy installation.The 3 ton condenser can be field converted...

hvacdirect.com

 

[DomOfTheDead]

The nameplate rating on each piece of equipment would be the truest answer to determining load demand. Nameplate will say voltage and wattage / amperage.

 

[gungriffin]

Looks interesting. ACE Hardware here sells it, no installers on their map though.

Be interested to see how that works for you

Everything being on 240V along with the start up surge power would determine if it could be on my Battery back up

I struggled to find this product again in a search. I knew that I would come across it again though, and I just did. Here is something that claims to solve the problem of start up surge on HVAC. The price is cheap if it solves the issue. The reviews on it are pretty good.

EasyStart™ 368 Soft Starter

The EasyStart™ soft start motor starter supports 115 & 230V A/C motors & employs a 4-part start ramp sequence that offers the lowest possible start-up current.

www.microair.net

 

[Romer]

Article in the Denver Post today on this topic

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/12/09/colorado-electricity-natural-gas-homes-heat-pumps/

It calls out the mitsubishi hyper heat pump which works down to -13 deg F.

 

[Romer]

I have moved forward in my evaluation and received quotes from 3 companies. Still asking them questions about them

I have Heat Pump options (Dual Fuel) in all 3 quotes. The 2023 Tax incentives make the Heat Pump in one the same end cost as a 17 SEER AC. The Heat Pump is also listed as a 17 SEER

As stated earlier, I have Solar with Batteries and currently the Furnace stays on in a Grid Outage, but the AC (future Heat Pump) goes off. I asked the 3 contractors if you could switch the furnace on and they said it’s a set point that can’t be adjusted by the Homeowner. I have asked them to dig into that more

I am hoping to create additional margin to my solar production so we can charge an EV for essentially free in a year or two. Not sure if that should be a goal here as I can always add another string if that becomes a driver, but that is a lot more $$$

Digging deeper into the heat pump, it looks like it takes more power to heat the home than cool it. I was wondering those with Dual Fuel systems how their total electric usage over a year changed with the Heat Pump (Dual Fuel)? Did the savings in the summer offset the extra usage in the winter? Is it a net Electricity gain or loss? I know Gas usage would go down reducing the time the furnace is on

The best Heat Pump quote has a Daikin 96% 100K BTU Furnace and a Daikin 3 ton 17 SEER Heat Pump
The AC quote I think is the best is an American Standard 80% Gold series 100K BTU with and American Standard Gold Series 17 SEER AC 3 Ton. I know the furnace is not as efficient on gas. Getting a 96% furnace with a 17 SEER AC is $3K more. The Daikin Heat Pump system quote is essentially the same price as this when you consider state and federal tax incentives in 2023.

If both the AC and Heat Pump are 17 SEER with variable speeds, wouldn’t they use the same electricity in the summer? Whereas, the AC would use no Electricity in the off summer, while the Heat Pump would use more in the winter.

One uses less gas (Heat Pump) and the other (AC) would create more Electricity production margin. I have to decide if that margin means more to me than the gas savings. To do that I need to know if the Heat Pump overall will use more or less electricity than my current 18 y furnace and 10 SEER AC over 12 months.

Probably a few questions I am not smart enough to even ask about so looking for some insights

 

[gungriffin]

It is my understanding that the heat pump will cost less in electricity overall for the entire year when compared to a dual fuel traditional HVAC setup. The heat pump will use less electricity than an electric AC setup in the Summer. In the winter, the nat gas furnace will be a bit less in total nat gas costs vs what the heat pump will cost in electricity. What I am saying is in the winter the total electric bill will be a bit higher for the heat pump vs the nat gas with a traditional furnace. It is my understanding that most heat pumps can create around a 4:1 ratio of heat to electricity usage. So you get about 4kw equivalent of heat from 1kw of electricity usage.

One item that will greatly influence how the system you buy works is if the heat pump is cold climate. Regular heat pumps will only heat down to about +32 degrees Farenheit. Cold climate heat pumps will heat down to about -15 degrees Farenheit. Going with a traditional heat pump might work well for your desire to stop using the electricity for the heat pump at a higher temperature.

I went with the 2/3 ton MrCool heat pump with a 8kw coil backup. It was given the okay for my needs from the people at loadcalcs.net. I had them draw up a manual J, manual S and a manual D. I won't qualify for any rebates, but it also only cost me $3800 shipped to my door. This compares to the lowest quote I received for a dual fuel setup of ~$17,500. That number only includes the Xcel rebates that were on offer in 2022. The 2023 IRA rebates seem to be income limited from what I was reading and it was unclear if I would actually qualify.

 

[Romer]

The 2023 IRA rebates seem to be income limited from what I was reading and it was unclear if I would actually qualify.

Income limited to the $8K rebate. Anyone can get the $2K rebate for the Heat Pump at all incomes. The state also is providing a 10% rebate on total cost for the Heat Pump install in 2023. That together made one of my Heat Pump Quotes less than all but 1 standard AC quote by taking $3800 off.

I received quotes from 3 different companies; Plumbline, Premier and 888 Heating. I compared the Xcel partner list to highest Google reviews. I did not include Bell Plumbing and heating as they were 30% more for the same water heater quote as Plumbline. Great company, but high prices.

For each company I got a 80% Furnace and 17 SEER AC, two companies gave me a 80% Furnace and Heat Pump option and one company gave me a 96% Furnace and Heat Pump Option

Plumbline was several thousand more for all options

Premier has the lower cost 80% Furnace and 17 SEER Quote, BUT they said I had to commit this year. The discount is due to lack of work to salary installers. It is $1500 less than an almost identical quote from 888 Heating, but the 888 Heating also includes new Humidifiers and air filtration. Not sure that is worth $1.5K

888 Heating has the best efficient quote with a 96% Furnace and 17 SEER Heat Pump

Plumbline also had a 24 SEER Heat Pump option, but I don't think its worth the extra $$

The difference considering rebates and Tax incentives is $2K between the two quotes considering Tax incentives
- Premier American Standard Gold 80% Furnace and 17 SEER AC. They said I have to do the install this year due to lack of work creating discounted price.
- 888 Heating Dakin 96% Furnace and 17 SEER Heat Pump

The 17 SEER Heat Pump and 17 SEER AC should use the same amount of electricity during the summer. The 96% furnace and Heat Pump will use less gas in the winter which has gone up 50% from a year ago

My research says if the controller detects that the Heat Pump isn't maintaining the temp (Heat) that it will automatically go to the Aux source which is the furnace . That was important for a Power Grid failure where the Furnace is powered by the batteries, but the Heat Pumps are not in my current configuration. I also read that I can set the Controller to emergency heat which shuts the heat Pump off and only use the furnace. That is the flexibility I wanted in the event gas prices come down and I want to run more on the furnace. Not saying I would ever do that, but I like having knobs to turn

Annual Gas savings estimated to be $650 a year for one system using todays Gas prices. This would pay for the difference in price in 2-3 years. Would use more electricity in winter requiring utilization of Solar bank to offset. Likely a wash from summer Elec savings to extra winter use. Solar system would still produce more Electricity than we use. That is what I am assuming with the little data I have.

so I can go lower cost, less efficient and create a bigger margin for my Solar production to power a future EV, OR $2K more with a more efficient system reducing gas usage but likely not enough solar to cover an EV.

I could always add another solar string if it gets tight

So, to Heat Pump or not to Heat Pump. That is the question

I am happy to share my spreadsheet comparing the quotes, but don't feel it is fair to these companies to post it on a public forum. PM me with your email address. I would wait a few days to send it as I have several questions out on the options that may or may not change my thinking

In looking at the quotes, some keep the Xcel rebates and some don't.

I will only be replacing 1 of my 2 systems in the short term and that will let me see how it works before I do the 2nd one. You maximize the Tax Incentives by doing only 1 a year.

 

[Romer]

BTW This is one of the reasons I am leaning towwards the efficient furnace and Heat Pump

Nov 2021 – Cost per Therm is 94 cents. Therm is how they measure gas use

Nov 2022 – Credit is the Solar bank crediting back against Electricity leaving just (~$5) fees. Cost per Therm is $1.51

January 2021 we used 318 Therms which would cost $480 for gas in 2022, similar for February. We have never had a bill that high even when paying for electricity

 

[Romer]

I ended up going with a Daikin 96% furnace and Daikin Fit 17 SEER Heat Pump. Scheduled install for January so I could take adavantage of all the Tax incentives

I pointed out to the contractor if they waited until Jan 1 to buy the Heat Pump, then they can avoid paying the 2.9% sales tax. They reduced the quote by that amount

I will take advantage of the 10% State Tax Credit (for all incomes) and the $2000 Fed Tax Credit (All Incomes) Incomes less than 150% of AMI (think =$147K in metro) get a scaled $8K Tax Credit.

That and the Sales tax reduction took $5K off my cost. The contractor already had taken credit for the Xcel rebates (some do and some don't).

My end cost will be $13.8K installed with a new Humidifier and air filter system

I have a two system house so will give me an opportunity to see how this one performs before I replace the 2nd system

another evaluation Done

 

[gungriffin]

A quick heads up to those in Denver county. The new 2023 subsidies are open for application. Most likely they are already gone, but you might get lucky if you try.

Home Energy Rebates and Incentives

Making your home energy efficient can improve comfort and indoor air quality. It also reduces energy bills. Find rebates, incentives, and tax credits to help you pay for an energy audit and deploy efficient, all-electric energy equipment like heat pumps.

www.denvergov.org

 

[Romer]

Now that it is 2024 I replaced the second system. Looks like I will get back around $5K in tax credits for Federal and State. There were also Xcel rebates which went to the HVAC installer in our arrangement

So the end cost counting Tax Incentives is about $12.7K for a Daiken 96% High Efficiency Furnace and 17 SERR Heat pump. The cost for the 2nd one was $17,759 before tax incentives. The Federal Credit is $2900 and I am still waiting for the state forms to come out and estimating around $2K. This is much better than I expected plus the contractor lowered the price $500 if I would do it early January instead of March like I suggested. I did let them know I was open to earlier if there was a good reason

I was happy with the amount of electricity the HVAC saved over the summer, but was surprised at how little gas savings it provided during heating season. The installers today showed me how to go into the Dealer option and set the point where it transitions from Heat Pump to Gas. They recommended 35 deg. Turns out the system I have had all year was set to 50 degrees, which meant it didn't work too much to provide heat.

the overall Electricity usage running Heat Pump above 50 deg (Mostly as AC) was about 1.7Mwh less than the previous older 10 SEER unit. I expect that to increase replacing the 12 year old 13 SEER with the Heat pump, but not as dramatic.

I then expect to lose some of that savings with the Heat Pumps now running down to 35 deg. I know how to adjust that if I think it is running too much

I have added a 1500 watt heater to my dettached garage and now insulated garage to keep the camper above freezing. It is set to 42 deg F and so far has kept up with the challenge. I don't open that garage door unless it is over 40 deg outside unless I need to. That did use an extra 400kWh in December by my estimation. So for 4 months it will be a good sized draw.

Next year I will have better stats on how all this works with both HVAC systems being identical with Heat Pumps running to lower temps. Next year or the year after we will get Bonni an EV and I believe that will fit within what the solar system generates which last year generated 2.3mWh more energy than I used even with the added Garage heater.

 

[Romer]

Yeah, this thread is worthless without pics

 

[gungriffin]

Heat pumps are awesome. It bums me out how political they are becoming. They seem to be the future. Especially for people with solar installations on their house.

I went with a 100% electric CCHP (Cold climate heat pump) and I have been really impressed with it. It is a Mr Cool 2/3 ton unit with an 8kw backup "hair dryer" element. The Mr Cool is just a rebranded Goodman. I damn near went with a dual fuel solution, but ultimately decided that I wanted to cease using nat gas in the house. It uses A LOT of electricity right now with having essentially no insulation or air sealing it the attic, but it has kept up with heating the house to about 55 at night and 65 during the day with now issue. I also find that I am happy with the heat rise it can provide. The highest heat rise that I will see is about 45 degrees Fahrenheit with just the heat pump and about a 65-70 rise with the hair dryer and heat pump. It can provide 2.5 tons of heat at -22 degrees Fahrenheit on the 3 ton setting. The next 3 days will prove to be the coldest test so far. I will be interested to see how it holds up.

I would totally do the install of the heat pump myself again. I redid my duct work and that SUCKED. The unit would have cost me about $3800 with tax and shipping before incentives. I did a lot more stuff and bought many tools for HVAC so I am in for somewhere around $7500 now.

 

[AlpineAccess]

Heat pumps are awesome. It bums me out how political they are becoming. They seem to be the future. Especially for people with solar installations on their house.

I went with a 100% electric CCHP (Cold climate heat pump) and I have been really impressed with it. It is a Mr Cool 2/3 ton unit with an 8kw backup "hair dryer" element. The Mr Cool is just a rebranded Goodman. I damn near went with a dual fuel solution, but ultimately decided that I wanted to cease using nat gas in the house. It uses A LOT of electricity right now with having essentially no insulation or air sealing it the attic, but it has kept up with heating the house to about 55 at night and 65 during the day with now issue. I also find that I am happy with the heat rise it can provide. The highest heat rise that I will see is about 45 degrees Fahrenheit with just the heat pump and about a 65-70 rise with the hair dryer and heat pump. It can provide 2.5 tons of heat at -22 degrees Fahrenheit on the 3 ton setting. The next 3 days will prove to be the coldest test so far. I will be interested to see how it holds up.

I would totally do the install of the heat pump myself again. I redid my duct work and that SUCKED. The unit would have cost me about $3800 with tax and shipping before incentives. I did a lot more stuff and bought many tools for HVAC so I am in for somewhere around $7500 now.

Ryan,

How has your heat pump been holding up in this cold?

Are you saying you keep your house at 55* overnight and 65* during the day?

When you stopped using natural gas - did you call Excel to disconnect you? Assume you just capped the lines at the old furnace?

We have a one story ranch with good solar exposure, so have been looking at heat pumps as a potential solution when our 20 year old Amana furnace bites it.