Adventures in 4Runner'ing

[DouglasVB]

If it shifts fine, doesn't pop out of gear and you changed the fluid, I wouldn't worry too much. I just use Castrol Hypoy-C.

Excellent! I was just surprised by how hot the sticks got. Nearly burning to the touch. Probably all that high speed driving and the desert temps...

I'm going to try to pick up a genuine remanufactured Toyota starter tomorrow from the dealer in Clovis, CA.

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[DouglasVB]

Didn't make it to Clovis today. Only to Prather. There is a NAPA with a surprisingly good selection. I picked up the electrical parts I needed to test if the problem is the starter or the rest of the electrical system. This afternoon I'll try that.

Interestingly, the starter was sluggish down at Prather for five starts (five different stops for stuff that my dad needed) but once we were bank up in the mountains at about 5000 feet, the starter was normal again. Temp in the valley was about 80 and up here about 70. From the valley to the mountains we gain almost 5000 feet meaning the engine was nice and toasty. Maybe something altitude related with my troubles?

I also posted on ih8mud for a diversity of opinions. What do you think about the fuel pressure regulator? http://forum.ih8mud.com/index.php?posts/9809759




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[DaveInDenver]

Not sure how fuel pressure could make the starter sluggish. Is the ground between the engine block and battery solid and well connected?

I guess I'm still thinking the starter has a heat soak issue. Dunno.

 

[ToyodaTocco]

I say get a starter from toyota and put it in. Those remans from auto parts stores are junk. My napa one lasted less than 8 months. I've changed my mind on parts that I use. Auto parts stores junk just doesn't last. Buy genuine parts from the dealer or somewhere else. It will cost more but it will last four times as long. I do have some autozone gold top batteries in cars at work that are 8 years old and still work good.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Have you tried jumping straight to the starter when it's acting up? Bypass the keyswitch and starter relay. Or maybe just replace the starter relay as a test. There's not much in the starter circuit on a 22R-E. Usually the problem is that the fuel circuit cuts out and prevents the truck from starting, but in my experience the starter motor itself usually either (1) turns like it should (b) doesn't turn at all or (3) randomly chooses case (1) or (b). Option 3 is because the solenoid contacts fail, the starter relay is failing or you have a missing tooth on the gear. It's usually V6 and V8 engines that have heat related starter issues because of the location of exhaust manifolds next to them.

 

[DouglasVB]

Thanks for helping me with this guys!

Not sure how fuel pressure could make the starter sluggish. Is the ground between the engine block and battery solid and well connected?

I guess I'm still thinking the starter has a heat soak issue. Dunno.

Yeah I thought the fuel pressure was kind of a red herring. As far as I can tell, there are no electrical connections between the two systems aside from shared ground and power connections to the battery, etc. There isn't any logic between them.

I'll be adding extra grounds and tightening things down just to make sure the engine, battery, and truck body are all well-grounded.

I say get a starter from toyota and put it in. Those remans from auto parts stores are junk. My napa one lasted less than 8 months. I've changed my mind on parts that I use. Auto parts stores junk just doesn't last. Buy genuine parts from the dealer or somewhere else. It will cost more but it will last four times as long. I do have some autozone gold top batteries in cars at work that are 8 years old and still work good.

Yeah :-( At the time I didn't realize how good the parts department at Stephenson is. I might have my uncle who is coming up to the mountains on Thursday pick up a starter from a Toyota dealership. Or if there's anything that I should be getting from Roger Brown (4crawler), my uncle only lives a few miles away from him.

Would a starter from NAPA also be auto store junk? I'm not sure where the various parts stores fall on the list of junk-to-OEM these days. There's a NAPA only an hour from me with a remanufactured starter in stock.

Have you tried jumping straight to the starter when it's acting up? Bypass the keyswitch and starter relay. Or maybe just replace the starter relay as a test. There's not much in the starter circuit on a 22R-E. Usually the problem is that the fuel circuit cuts out and prevents the truck from starting, but in my experience the starter motor itself usually either (1) turns like it should (b) doesn't turn at all or (3) randomly chooses case (1) or (b). Option 3 is because the solenoid contacts fail, the starter relay is failing or you have a missing tooth on the gear. It's usually V6 and V8 engines that have heat related starter issues because of the location of exhaust manifolds next to them.

I got the parts for the electrical tests this morning and will put them on this evening after dinner.

The starter was definitely very slow cranking when it was hot and it got slower and slower as the day went on until it wouldn't turn over the engine anymore. It acted just like a dying battery. The indicator lights on the dash dimmed at every crank-over. This wasn't like a missing tooth (I had that in my old Pontiac Phoenix many years ago) and it wasn't like a good and working vs not good and not working at all scenario. This was a more or less linear progression like when a battery is running down. But the battery is good, the charging from the alternator is good, and all the other electrical stuff in the truck works fine.

I'm really not looking forward to doing the starter again. But at least I don't have to do the fuel filter at the same time this time.

 

[AxleIke]

I'm just going to throw in my .02 here, take it for what it's worth.

I have gone the parts store route. It has never, not once, worked out in my Toyotas. I have tried plugs, axles, alternators, seals, and a distributer cap/rotor/ and wires. All had to be replaced in under two years. Some as fast as a week.

I buy exclusively Toyota stuff now. When you join rising sun, you get a good discount which brings genuine OEM into the range of NAPA Premium parts. It is not, to me, worth the hassle of having to replace inferior parts over and over, especially if those parts leave you on a trail stuck.

I know not everyone has my experience, but it's been my policy for a while now, and my rig is running very strong with 250k and counting. I have not had a single breakdown, just wear items here and there, so to me, it's pretty worth it.

Anyway, certainly not trying to bash anyone who is on a tight budget that needs to grab the lower cost items. I've been/ still am there to a certain extent. But if you can afford it, I recommend it. In my mind, it's money well spent.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I can tell you from experience that the NAPA starter isn't an improvement. I took my old one in and they only had one option for me. It looked different, the nose shape was a little different and the whole casting was just slightly odd. Most worrying was the starter gear didn't look like it would extend enough to fully mesh with the flywheel ring gear. I didn't even give it a try.

My $0.02 is that Toyota North American repair parts now are what NAPA used to be, which was IMHO already a step down from original parts from Japan. I will use substitutes from auto stores when there is no question. Koyo bearings are Koyo bearings. I'll use 555 or OSK or Aisin if I can find them (sometimes Amazon has them, for example), since those are OEM parts.

But when I have a doubt, I'll default to Toyota factory parts. Toyota is worldwide organization, so the parts the they source here are often from the same places the Big 3 or whomever use, but presumably they have a different spec and quality. Not always, though. The Tacoma frame saga shows you gotta watch them all.

 

[DouglasVB]

But when I have a doubt, I'll default to Toyota factory parts. Toyota is worldwide organization, so the parts the they source here are often from the same places the Big 3 or whomever use, but presumably they have a different spec and quality. Not always, though. The Tacoma frame saga shows you gotta watch them all.

Are you saying that Tacomas were made specifically for big American butts? (Tacomas like big American butts and they cannot lie, you other auto manufacturers cannot deny... with apologies to Sir Mix Alot)

In the Honda PC800 community, we have the saying "Mother Honda knows best." It sounds like that encapsulates the parts supply for Toyotas, too.

I wonder if Stevinson could ship to me here in California... That might be faster than trying to get parts from Fresno...

 

[DaveInDenver]

If you Google about Tacoma frames you'll see they weakened them compared to the Hilux/Pickup. The Taco is a C-channel from about the cab back while the Hilux is fully boxed from tip to stern. But that's not really the main issue, Toyota North America in their infinite wisdom decided the rustproofing that helped Toyota frames last for decades was excessive and they put half as thick a coat on and a subpar corrosion preventative. Sure, they say Dana (the same Dana that makes F150 up to over the road frames) is to blame, but they just built the frame Toyota spec'd.

 

[DouglasVB]

If the mosquitos don't eat me first, I'll have the wiring tests done in the next hour or so. For reference, here's where I'm working. https://instagram.com/p/4SmKATqxnK/

(Instagram is stupid and won't embed here)

There are worse places to troubleshoot a 4runner

 

[DouglasVB]

I have all of the wiring in (four runs of 16 gauge copper wire from the ground post on the battery to the same bolt on the engine, where the front engine hoist point is; one 16 gauge run to the body where there are a few grounds connecting from the fuse and relay box under the hood; starter bypass momentary switch; starter bypass relay) and will be ready to connect to the starter solenoid tomorrow morning when there's enough light.

One question... I'm looking at Rock Auto (a friend who does racecar stuff and appears to know his auto parts recommended it) and I see that there is either a remanufactured ACDELCO or Beck/Arnley starter (both originally Nippon Denso that were remanufactured) that I could get from them. There are also a few others that don't say they're remanufactured from Nippon Denso cores including Bosch, Remy, Pure Energy, and Denso. Would one of these work as good as one I could get from a Toyota dealer? I could have the part in two days which would probably be faster than waiting for the next trip from the mountains to the valley where the dealer is located out here.

 

[DaveInDenver]

If I had to guess, I'd think the Beck/Arnley is most likely to be the same as the Toyota reman. They are the distributor who I find most often uses the same sources as Toyota (as well as most imports). They don't make any (or at least many) of their own parts AFAIK, they just re-box them.

The Denso, that seems promising, but I've never personally bought a Denso reman directly so couldn't say for sure. Nippondenso was actually part of Toyota originally but is now just one company of the Toyota Group (also Aisin, JTEKT/Koyo, etc.). Denso once was exclusive to Toyota and still is one very major supplier, but they sell parts to other companies now. So those are generally the exact same parts at OE. The 'Nippon' part was dropped from their name, it's just Denso Global or something like that now.

The rest, no way to say for sure. There aren't that many places that reman parts, so it's kind of a crap shoot.

But unless I could put eyes on it or /knew/ with certainty about a part number, I'd personally just get the one from the dealer.

 

[DouglasVB]

But unless I could put eyes on it or /knew/ with certainty about a part number, I'd personally just get the one from the dealer.

I'm looking at the Toyota parts catalog (on Stevenson Toyota's website) and see a total of four different starters listed, all with [EDIT] similar [/EDIT] part numbers (281003503084, 281003506084, etc.) but with slightly different descriptions and prices. Two are for 2WD and two are for 4WD. That eliminates two of them right away. The two remaining ones are "W Heavy Duty" and "W/O Heavy Duty."

Is there actually a difference between the two? It looks like I could order the part from Stephenson and get it delivered to me here in the mountains. That's way better than spending a whole day driving down to Fresno and back.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Probably interchangeable. Couldn't say which I used. Since my truck is RN110 and has the cold weather spec I probably got the 1.4kW, I typically use my VIN at the dealer if there is a question. Although I don't ever remember this coming up.

STARTER ASSY.
STARTER ASSY 12V 1.4KW; 12V 1.4KW,12V 1.4KW,NIPPONDENSO USA; 12V 1.4KW,COLD SPEC,USA DENSO; 12V 1.4KW,IRELAND SPEC; 12V 1.4KW,USA DENSO
Stock Code 2810008020 ; 2810035060; 281003506084
Manufacturer Toyota
Categories Entertainment, Audio & Electronics
Assemblies STARTER; STARTER (2400CC EFI; 4RUNNER,TRUCK (RN101),110); STARTER (2400CC EFI; 4RUNNER,TRUCK (RN80),90); STARTER (2400CC EFI; RN10#,110,13#); STARTER (2400CC EFI; RN8#,90; CANADA
2400CC EFI; RN8#,90; USA)

STARTER ASSY.
STARTER ASSY 12V 1.0KW; 12V 1.0KW,12V 1.0KW
Stock Code 2810035030 ; 281003503084
Manufacturer Toyota
Categories Entertainment, Audio & Electronics
Assemblies STARTER; STARTER (22R#; RN6#; USA); STARTER (2400CC EFI; 4RUNNER,TRUCK (RN130)
2400CC EFI; RN10#,110,130; USA)

 

[DouglasVB]

Quick update: There is no real update. I was backpacking for the last few days. The truck starts up and runs fine up here in the mountains in California. My plan currently is to drive it with the existing starter back to Colorado next Monday. Heather will be with me so between the two of us we will be able to push start it if it comes down to that.

Once in Colorado, I'll see about acquiring a good remanufactured starter (or a starter from someone in the club... I think someone mentioned maybe back around page 10 of this thread that they have a spare they were willing to part with... then I'd rebuild it myself) and installing it. Then I'll carry the starter that is in the truck now as a backup/spare.

In unrelated news, I am getting TONS of thumbs-ups from all of the 4x4 guys I pass on the roads around here. There was a whole group of 4runners (all 2nd gen or newer) heading up the big grade from Fresno to Shaver Lake that rubbernecked me on the way down. Mini trucks must be a rarity out in this area. Finally I'm cool!

 

[DouglasVB]

I had an uneventful drive back to Colorado yesterday. There is a new starter in my future. The heat wasn't bad enough to make the starter completely quit but it was very sluggish in the high temps between Tehachapi and St. George. My schedule is such the next month that I won't get to replacing the starter until sometime in August. I will buy one from the dealer, open it up to verify everything is good inside, and then install it (in case I need to buy anything for 4crawler for a rebuild).

 

[DouglasVB]

The bumper, tube doors, and sliders I ordered arrived today!

(pretend the photo isn't sideways)

Were it not raining right now, I would do a test fit of the bumper and tube doors.

My plan is to paint the bumper black and the doors the same color as the body (Light Topaz Metalic, 4E1). I haven't decided what to paint the sliders yet.

I'll probably do a self-etching weld-through primer for where my buddy with a welder will do some welding for me.

Does anyone know if there might be a near-substitute for the color of my truck in spray paint form that doesn't cost a zillion dollars? The various automotive touch-up paints would be outrageously expensive for the surface area I'll need to cover.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Nice!
That's gonna look good.

 

[DouglasVB]

Nice!
That's gonna look good.

I think it will look good, too!

I'm surprised how light all of that steel is. According to the FedEx tracking information, everything only weighs 145 lbs. Taking off the stock front bumper and related hardware and the stock doors probably will be about 50-70 lbs of weight. To make up the rest of the weight difference, I'll jump on a tread mill more often