Young pilot has close call with Devil's Thumb on July 4th

[Tch2fly]

This plane is specifically for time building… seats are taken out and you only have one pilots seat. It’s a 100HP engine… it’s for people building time to get to hours they may need.

110 HP on a std 152

I disagree with that club's philosophy because it is encouraging shortcuts ... pilots don't need to build "time" they need to gain experience and unfortunately the only way the FAA can quantify that experience is to track it in terms of time. There are great ways to build time and real experience but it isn't always cheap ... the cheap route leaves us with videos like that or worse.
Thousands of flights a day with low time FO's who ticked off hours till they met the minimum time and it all goes fine but the world has also seen the results when the shit hits the fan and the lack of experience ends in disaster.

 

[3rdGen4R]

110 HP on a std 152

I disagree with that club's philosophy because it is encouraging shortcuts ... pilots don't need to build "time" they need to gain experience and unfortunately the only way the FAA can quantify that experience is to track it in terms of time. There are great ways to build time and real experience but it isn't always cheap ... the cheap route leaves us with videos like that or worse.
Thousands of flights a day with low time FO's who ticked off hours till they met the minimum time and it all goes fine but the world has also seen the results when the shit hits the fan and the lack of experience ends in disaster.

Taking one example doesn’t quantify proof of anything. A commercial pilot requires 250 hours of total time. Flying a Cessna 150 around, doing cross countries, and on and on… can be very valuable. And flying doesn’t have to cost a life saving. I’ve sent many commercial students to fly this plane and have seen them come back a much better pilot by learning. Most don’t have the stupidity to do mountain flying with no training.

 

[3rdGen4R]

Would you like me to post the videos of high time pilots with lots of experience enhancing people’s life’s?

 

[Tch2fly]

Taking one example doesn’t quantify proof of anything. A commercial pilot requires 250 hours of total time. Flying a Cessna 150 around, doing cross countries, and on and on… can be very valuable. And flying doesn’t have to cost a life saving. I’ve sent many commercial students to fly this plane and have seen them come back a much better pilot by learning. Most don’t have the stupidity to do mountain flying with no training.

Well this all started because of one video but you are right, one example of a CFI (who should know better) building time stupidly is not the same as one of your students working toward the next step inexpensively while under a certain level of supervision. I know any flight time can be valuable for someone still working toward ratings but I also hold a CFI to a higher standard as he/she reaches the next step in their career, they start reaching ATP level the proficiency/currency should be geared toward more than bouncing around VFR in a 152.

Clearly our backgrounds and experience are different and we will have different teaching methods but I still don't think highly of a stripped down 152 as being the right example for students so we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

I would suggest you don't take my opinion personally ... it is only an opinion.

 

[3rdGen4R]

What was the minimum hour requirement when you got your ATP?

 

[Crash]

View: https://youtu.be/opBe5z0qwRE?si=Gqc_kJi_52CixGfM

 

[Tch2fly]

What was the minimum hour requirement when you got your ATP?

Whoa I'm not THAT old but I don't remember it ever being less than 1500 hrs for an ATP (but I know they made changes in 2013 for the R-ATP)
In any case I took the written but never the practical ... as I ended up taking a job at Boeing and didn't need it for flying a desk (and occasionally the 737NG Lvl D sim)

 

[3rdGen4R]

Do you have a commercial cert?

 

[3rdGen4R]

The reason I ask is because unless you understand how expensive and how much work goes into getting 1500 hours than it won’t make sense in what I’m going to say.

 

[Tch2fly]

Do you have a commercial cert?

I deleted my original answer where I listed my hours and my certificate/ratings because I as I thought about it I realize I don't owe you an explanation or proof of my knowledge or experience. You have assumed that because I said I did not have an ATP that I don't have at least 1500 hours and now question whether I have a Commercial rating because otherwise I won't understand your point about the work and expense of flying (FYI "TCH2FLY" is for Teach to Fly because among other ratings I'm a CFII).
I'm going to try to say this nicely, I know exactly how much it takes to build 1500 hours and I really don't care about your thoughts regarding the cost of time building.

 

[3rdGen4R]

I deleted my original answer where I listed my hours and my certificate/ratings because I as I thought about it I realize I don't owe you an explanation or proof of my knowledge or experience. You have assumed that because I said I did not have an ATP that I don't have at least 1500 hours and now question whether I have a Commercial rating because otherwise I won't understand your point about the work and expense of flying (FYI "TCH2FLY" is for Teach to Fly because among other ratings I'm a CFII).
I'm going to try to say this nicely, I know exactly how much it takes to build 1500 hours and I really don't care about your thoughts regarding the cost of time building.

So am I. I think this is where it’s healthy to have an understanding of what it takes to do this stuff. I don’t always think it’s has to be done one way or another.

 

[3rdGen4R]

Just to finish this thread.

The minimum flight hours required to earn an Air Transport Pilot (ATP) license increased from 250 to 1,500 in 2009. So my guess is that most people don’t understand how much that has affected people trying to reach ATP and just how hard it is to accomplish this. Most people that have this opinion about how we accomplish this number have never actually done it.

 

[Tch2fly]

Just to finish this thread.

The minimum flight hours required to earn an Air Transport Pilot (ATP) license increased from 250 to 1,500 in 2009. So my guess is that most people don’t understand how much that has affected people trying to reach ATP and just how hard it is to accomplish this. Most people that have this opinion about how we accomplish this number have never actually done it.

Wrong, I will leave this from FAR Part 61 in 1978 for you to consider. Go do a bit more research on the actual change (hint it was the FO requirements)

 

[3rdGen4R]

Oh my goodness… do you think that to serve as a FO on a 121 or 135 doesn’t require a ATP license and type rating?

 

[3rdGen4R]

Also I’m enjoying how you are hinting at things I never said… it’s kind of weird.

 

[Tch2fly]

LMAO … I knew you wouldn’t admit you were wrong but I admit I wasn’t expecting such a weird deflection.
Until the rule change an FO did NOT need an ATP only a commercial (250 hrs) I know several pilots (one I trained) hired in the mid 2000s into the right seat of 121 operations with 500 hrs. The rule change requires BOTH pilots to have an ATP which we agree requires 1500 total time ( a minimum time that has not changed in several decades as I stated several posts back)

 

[3rdGen4R]

LMAO … I knew you wouldn’t admit you were wrong but I admit I wasn’t expecting such a weird deflection.
Until the rule change an FO did NOT need an ATP only a commercial (250 hrs) I know several pilots (one I trained) hired in the mid 2000s into the right seat of 121 operations with 500 hrs. The rule change requires BOTH pilots to have an ATP which we agree requires 1500 total time ( a minimum time that has not changed in several decades as I stated several posts back)

So since 2013 ATP has applied to all pilots wanting to fly in a 121 or a 135 operation. So wrong about what exactly?

You realize that the FO is now required to have a ATP license before they are allowed a job or no?

Finally, thanks for making my point finally. You want to talk about there being better ways to build time but you have offered nothing to the conversation, please tell me how one builds time? Flight instruction isn’t for everyone, so before you do that, please don’t be another person who thinks FI is a time building position.

Before you became aggressive I was literally just asking if you have had to build 1500 hours. You realize you can get you instructor license without having to have you commercial. (Sport instructor)

Going back to my question I asked, I don’t think you really have an idea what 1500 takes and how much money and time go into it. Have a good day. I stand by my last point that the change in 2013 just like the video above states has caused a lot of the grief to the aviation industry.

 

[Tch2fly]

There is a lot to unpack there so I just want to focus on a previous statement you made :

... The minimum flight hours required to earn an Air Transport Pilot (ATP) license increased from 250 to 1,500 in 2009. ...

I knew this statement to be demonstrably false. I posted a screenshot of the 1978 FAR part 61.159 Aeronautical Experience which in part reads:
"... applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time..."
That should make it very obvious (other changes aside) that no changes were made to the ATP minimum time requirements in 2009.

Talking about that statement and only that statement, based on that information provided (or any other proof you want to provide) was your statement about the change in minimum time correct or incorrect?

 

[J1000]

1500 hours is a lot. What part about that requires a flight over the continental divide? Why not build time flying to La Junta?

 

[Romer]

Maybe you guys should take your argument to a bar over a beer

Just say'n