Trading up to a Taco from a mini truck?

What should I do?


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DaveInDenver

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As to Dave's point, I've read that the Japanese made models (4Runner as an example) are much more reliable than the US made Taco's. As you would expect. So you might do some research there and find out if there is much truth to that.
I think we want that to be true but I think the examples of it are going to be specific and not general.

The Tacoma frame issue comes to mind, being blamed on the subcontractor Dana. I honestly don't know how true this is because 4Runners of the same vintage in the same places (the use of rock salt in the upper Midwest is equally brutal) can get pretty rusty and you read about Hilux with frame rot in places like the UK near the sea. So my $0.02 is Toyota is not blameless, with a paint specification or material specification coming into play.

I will also cite that the lack of a pilot bearing in the 6 speed manuals is a design decision and FJ Cruisers have the same issues, worn input bearings, chirping throw out bearings because of it and those are made right along side 4Runners and Prado in Japan. Potentially another subcontractor (Aisin) fault? If so then Toyota is doing a poor job managing their suppliers, if nothing else.
 

AxleIke

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DouglasVB said:
To get my truck up to snuff, I'm looking at $15k all in to do an engine swap (3.4l or 2.7l) that is California (and soon Colorado ) legal

I'm not following that, but my understanding could be off. Cali swaps (to my knowlege) require that all emissions equipment for a california emissions truck that was standard at the time the engine was sold (so 1999 if you got a 1999 3.4L) be present in the swapped truck. (Feel free to correct that if its false, just what I've gleaned over the past 20 years from others).

I have a standard old 3.4L (fed emissions). It won't run without an evap tank and sensor, cats, and 2 O2 sensors. You can probably hack it apart and defeat all of that, but in terms of cost, it would be way more labor to fool the ECM into not having the emissions than it would be to just pull all emissions and such off a donor truck and have a plug and play wiring job.

People run into all sorts of issues in California with V8 swaps and diesel swaps. Domestic V8's are super easy to modify to run without emissions equipment, you can buy software to reflash almost everything in the ECM. Toyota has secretive closed source code, which is why URD sells piggyback units to modify incoming and outgoing signals from the ECM rather than a flash or re-code of the ECM itself.

People also bitch because when they swap, say an FJ40, to an LS1, the FJ now has to pass emissions at the LS1 level, which they never had to do before. "Why do I have to pass 2010 emissions standards if my truck is a 1976?" as an example. If they do a crate engine, they then have to source all of the emissions stuff, which costs more. You'd be getting a donor vehicle anyway, because you need a ton of other junk with the motor to make it work.

15K sounds right for the cost of a shop doing it, but the only expensive thing there is the cost of living, and thus the shop rates. The emissions would have very little to do with it.

And for Colorado, thus far what has been proposed applies to new vehicle fleets. Sucks for auto-manufacturers, but won't be an issue with engine swaps. Denver, boulder, CO-springs, etc... may adopt higher standards because of air quality issues (mostly ozone) but I doubt the outlying and rural counties will.

My parents live in Park County, and I doubt they will have to pass emissions ever, at least not in their lifetimes (hopefully another 30 years!). Time will tell, but the proposed Colorado changes are aimed at carbon emission reductions. California's standards are to try to keep death rates lower from actual air pollution poisoning.
 

AxleIke

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I think we want that to be true but I think the examples of it are going to be specific and not general.

The Tacoma frame issue comes to mind, being blamed on the subcontractor Dana. I honestly don't know how true this is because 4Runners of the same vintage in the same places (the use of rock salt in the upper Midwest is equally brutal) can get pretty rusty and you read about Hilux with frame rot in places like the UK near the sea. So my $0.02 is Toyota is not blameless, with a paint specification or material specification coming into play.

I will also cite that the lack of a pilot bearing in the 6 speed manuals is a design decision and FJ Cruisers have the same issues, worn input bearings, chirping throw out bearings because of it and those are made right along side 4Runners and Prado in Japan. Potentially another subcontractor (Aisin) fault? If so then Toyota is doing a poor job managing their suppliers, if nothing else.

Frame issues on Taco's were due to Dana cutting cost and not using the Toyota Specified procedure (per BVB, who has dealt with 1000's of recalls in his time). And UK by the sea, as well as rock salt, makes everything rust. If its in an area that gets hit by rocks and road debris, the coating is going to get removed, and rust. And, a coating is only as good as the end user's treatment. If you let salt and other stuff sit on coated surfaces and continually get reactivated every time its moist (like the UK), they will degrade as well. Gotta wash it off and clean if you want things to last, IMO.

Unless Toyota is going to step up cost and go aluminum or stainless, I don't think you are going to get around rust in those areas, but that's just me.

4Runners also don't have manuals, so that could be the big difference in the reliability: no pilot issue. I would absolutely agree that to be a design flaw.
 

DaveInDenver

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Frame issues on Taco's were due to Dana cutting cost and not using the Toyota Specified procedure (per BVB, who has dealt with 1000's of recalls in his time).
Fair enough.

Toyota sued and got Dana to cover some of the cost on the 1st gen US-made frames and could be behind the early second gen issues. But Metalsa started making frames in Mexico somewhere around 2009 and Toyota lost a class action lawsuit for premature frame corrosion on 2005 to 2010 Tacomas. So of course they'll try to blame a supplier but two with the same issue? Dunno.
 

AxleIke

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Yeah, pretty hard to know the exact details. I'm sure there is fault to go around, and given the continued issues, seems like a design or other flaw coupled with those problems.

Its frustrating to have stuff that goes out like that. Is there a fix for the pilot bearing issue? I'm actually very surprised they got rid of it :o Seems bizarre to me, but I'm quite obviously not an automotive engineer (Given my hit or miss ability to modify stuff LOL!!).

So far, we've been happy with our 2010 and 2017 Rav4's. I've been driving the 2010 since last summer and its been good.

One thing I will say: Toyota's Interiors are cheap and rattle super quick. But they've always been that way, at least on the minitrucks (can't speak to cruisers). IMO, that was fine in the 80's when they were also (relatively) cheap cars. But with the price of the new stuff, I'm disappointed that everything is plastic clips and studs. It doesn't last for crap. I've replaced most of the clips in the back of my 4runner but the 2010 rav has numerous annoying rattles and I haven't had time to track them down as of yet.

I will say that the 2010 hauled about 2,000 lbs of paver stone in my trailer recently, and did remarkably well (though it was at slow speeds and on residential roads). The motor and tranny have been dead reliable up to 160k. Hoping for another 160.
 

jps8460

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Decent unlocked 80 - $3500, maintenance items ($1500), arb’s lockers and gears (you already have 1 locker) $2k, shortbus and winch $2k, 35’s $1200. Just run the auto, it’s cheating at 4x4’s.

Having a truck on 35’s you could reliably drive from Alaska to Chili ... priceless. Bet you can even find a white one :). Quit being so hard on yourself and hit the easy button. FWIW, I think my old 60 is still for sale.... It’s reliable as hell but still requires tinkering
 

DaveInDenver

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And after all that work you're still driving a station wagon, soccer moms rejoice! It'll be a highly capable, reliable one, though.
 

DouglasVB

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If you don't mind a suggestion, despite all you've heard, and judging by the wheeling you've posted (I'll admit, I've only seen some, so I could be off on the type of trails you like, but it seems like "overlanding" is your style), you will likely be pretty satisfied with a new tacoma with a mild lift. I can't speak to reliability, but comfort, ease of use, mileage, etc... will serve you well. You can haul kayaks, camp gear, hiking stuff, whatever, pretty easily.

If you are set on 37's and big rocks, keep what you have. Fix the AC, and tow it, or just deal with slow running. Beating the sheet metal and plastic on a $40,000 truck is a rich man's game.

You're very right. In the last year and a half, I've hardly needed more than a bone stock mini truck. And 95% of the stuff that I did in Colorado could be achieved with a mild build, 33" tires, and careful application of skinny pedal.

I want to do bigger stuff though. Specifically, my mother has requested that I take her on the Dusy Trail in the next few years while she is still able to do it. My parents are in the process of moving back to the Fresno-Shaver Lake-Dinkey Creek area for their retirement so she is eager to go on that trail one more time.


I'm not following that, but my understanding could be off. Cali swaps (to my knowlege) require that all emissions equipment for a california emissions truck that was standard at the time the engine was sold (so 1999 if you got a 1999 3.4L) be present in the swapped truck. (Feel free to correct that if its false, just what I've gleaned over the past 20 years from others).

I have a standard old 3.4L (fed emissions). It won't run without an evap tank and sensor, cats, and 2 O2 sensors. You can probably hack it apart and defeat all of that, but in terms of cost, it would be way more labor to fool the ECM into not having the emissions than it would be to just pull all emissions and such off a donor truck and have a plug and play wiring job.

People run into all sorts of issues in California with V8 swaps and diesel swaps. Domestic V8's are super easy to modify to run without emissions equipment, you can buy software to reflash almost everything in the ECM. Toyota has secretive closed source code, which is why URD sells piggyback units to modify incoming and outgoing signals from the ECM rather than a flash or re-code of the ECM itself.

People also bitch because when they swap, say an FJ40, to an LS1, the FJ now has to pass emissions at the LS1 level, which they never had to do before. "Why do I have to pass 2010 emissions standards if my truck is a 1976?" as an example. If they do a crate engine, they then have to source all of the emissions stuff, which costs more. You'd be getting a donor vehicle anyway, because you need a ton of other junk with the motor to make it work.

15K sounds right for the cost of a shop doing it, but the only expensive thing there is the cost of living, and thus the shop rates. The emissions would have very little to do with it.

And for Colorado, thus far what has been proposed applies to new vehicle fleets. Sucks for auto-manufacturers, but won't be an issue with engine swaps. Denver, boulder, CO-springs, etc... may adopt higher standards because of air quality issues (mostly ozone) but I doubt the outlying and rural counties will.

My parents live in Park County, and I doubt they will have to pass emissions ever, at least not in their lifetimes (hopefully another 30 years!). Time will tell, but the proposed Colorado changes are aimed at carbon emission reductions. California's standards are to try to keep death rates lower from actual air pollution poisoning.

My knowledge of California engine swap laws is only from googling a bunch of stuff -- no direct knowledge yet. It is my understanding that all emissions equipment needs to be swapped over in an identical configuration INCLUDING the exhaust routing. That's an issue for 3.4l engines because I believe they all have the exhaust go down the passenger side where the gas tank is on my 4runner. What I have seen on older forum posts is people basically temporarily building their exhaust system on the "stock" side for a 3.4l swap to pass the initial inspection. Then rip all of it apart and rebuild it to be on the correct side for a mini truck. Future inspections don't do a full "is this in the right location" inspection and only do a "is all the equipment here and does it pass emissions" inspection.

I'm all for having all of the stock emissions equipment aboard and operational. I have to believe that if I put a modern engine and emissions equipment into my 4runner, I'd be doing a major solid for the planet. Just wish it was a little more user-friendly on how a swap can be done in California. I totally get why they're anal though -- trying to determine if some custom exhaust setup matches emissions regulations is really hard.

It appears that diesel swaps are impossible to do because the state no longer will inspect them unless your vehicle came stock with a diesel engine. That could change again in the future depending on what the California Air Resource Board does. This is also why diesel gray market imports are impossible.

If it was practical, I'd swap to an all electric drivetrain and put one of those smug bumper stickers about being electric and saving the planet on my truck. Maybe in another 10 years :D:D:D


Decent unlocked 80 - $3500, maintenance items ($1500), arb’s lockers and gears (you already have 1 locker) $2k, shortbus and winch $2k, 35’s $1200. Just run the auto, it’s cheating at 4x4’s.

Having a truck on 35’s you could reliably drive from Alaska to Chili ... priceless. Bet you can even find a white one :). Quit being so hard on yourself and hit the easy button. FWIW, I think my old 60 is still for sale.... It’s reliable as hell but still requires tinkering

Jackson... are you ready for me to come sleep on your floor when :Princess: throws me to the curb for driving an automatic? :lmao:

I tried broaching the subject of an automatic to :Princess: last night and she laughed at me and walked away. I don't think she thought I was being serious. Maybe I'll try again tonight while at the same time giving her chocolate and wine.

For the sake of argument... about $11k into an 80 to make it kickass. Hmm. I could almost convince myself to ditch my daily driver for that ;)

And after all that work you're still driving a station wagon, soccer moms rejoice! It'll be a highly capable, reliable one, though.

:kevin: = soccer mom mobile. Well, in my zip code that was true in the 90s. Now only poor people drive 80 series here. All the middle class soccer moms drive 200 series. The rich ones are driving Mercedes AMG G Wagens. Heck, the girlfriend of the kid that lives in the apartment behind us drives a LR3. Everyone looks at me like I am a meth addict driving around in my old Ford Focus hatchback. I do get a lot of envious looks when I'm driving the 4runner though.

-----------------------

I guess one other question I should be asking is what could I do with my 22RE to make it behave better. It looks like I can find California-compliant exhaust headers and high flow cat, I could fix all of the leaks and put in a new timing chain, I could put in a different cam. But would it be enough to get anywhere at a speed other than slow?
 

mcgaskins

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I want to do bigger stuff though. Specifically, my mother has requested that I take her on the Dusy Trail in the next few years while she is still able to do it. My parents are in the process of moving back to the Fresno-Shaver Lake-Dinkey Creek area for their retirement so she is eager to go on that trail one more time.

Just read the link on that trail. Sounds awesome and that's amazing your mom is into wheeling that hard! I took my mom on Hells Revenge, and she didn't speak for a few hours. Not because of anger towards me, she literally didn't say anything because she was so afraid (didn't help we got stuck in a torrential downpour right at the top of a steep descent and lightning was striking all around us - in a rented RZR without doors or roof either oops).
 

DouglasVB

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Just read the link on that trail. Sounds awesome and that's amazing your mom is into wheeling that hard! I took my mom on Hells Revenge, and she didn't speak for a few hours. Not because of anger towards me, she literally didn't say anything because she was so afraid (didn't help we got stuck in a torrential downpour right at the top of a steep descent and lightning was striking all around us - in a rented RZR without doors or roof either oops).

My mom has zero fear. She loved making my dad and I nervous when I was growing up by walking right up to the edge of 1000 foot vertical drops when we went backpacking in the Sierras.

When she was young, she went on many of the 4x4 trails (including a bunch of the long-closed ones) in the Sierra National Forest. Then she and my dad worked for the Forest for about a decade so they drove all sorts of different vehicles on the back roads and trails. They used to drive their Ford Maverick on the first four or five miles of Dusy to Voyager Rock in the 70s!

My great grandfather worked on many of the hydro projects in the area back in the day and it was either him or some of his buddies that pioneered the Dusy route. They used to take their WWII surplus Jeeps and point them in a direction, and see how far they could get. Crazy stuff to hear stories from the few old-timers that are left in the area.
 

mcgaskins

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My mom has zero fear. She loved making my dad and I nervous when I was growing up by walking right up to the edge of 1000 foot vertical drops when we went backpacking in the Sierras.

When she was young, she went on many of the 4x4 trails (including a bunch of the long-closed ones) in the Sierra National Forest. Then she and my dad worked for the Forest for about a decade so they drove all sorts of different vehicles on the back roads and trails. They used to drive their Ford Maverick on the first four or five miles of Dusy to Voyager Rock in the 70s!

My great grandfather worked on many of the hydro projects in the area back in the day and it was either him or some of his buddies that pioneered the Dusy route. They used to take their WWII surplus Jeeps and point them in a direction, and see how far they could get. Crazy stuff to hear stories from the few old-timers that are left in the area.

That is awesome :thumb:
 

Notyourmomslx450

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Dusty and the Con can both be run w/ IFS rigs. just saying......
I think you should keep what you have. The exhaust thing shouldn't be an issue. Plenty of first gen runners in Cali w/ 3.4 swaps.
 
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