Riv Nut Tool discussion

Romer

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
10,464
Location
Centennial, Colorado
Thanks for the tip on the tool @AimCOTaco. Real easy tool to use

Obviously you have to screw the Riv Nut all the way down. It required two hands to use so no picture :)

1737156640596.png
 

Cruisertrash

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
2,881
Location
Denver
I've been using rivnuts extensively throughout my fj60 build and they're great for mounting various components and brackets. They're convenient and very adequate for light to medium duty projects. On occasion I've very easily been able to over torque and spin the rivnut which then needed to be drilled and removed. Great addition to the tool arsenal.
Thread revival. What stuff did you use rivnuts for in your 60? I'm looking to add l-tracks to the cargo area so I can tie down gear, mostly bins full of camping gear. I found some stuff that will recess to the carpet & rubber mat, so they'll be pretty flush. Do you think rivnuts would be enough to hold, let's say, a 40lb box of junk on a rocky trail?

What I'm trying to avoid is through-bolting the tracks down. That requires dropping the gas tank to get the nuts on, and I'm not doing that.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,960
Location
Grand Junction
Do you think rivnuts would be enough to hold, let's say, a 40lb box of junk on a rocky trail?
Failure strength depends on the size but generally the base material is going to fail before the Rivnut itself does. In other words, you'll tear the whole Rivnut through the sheet metal.

Which is a legitimate failure mode since the area you're using for the Rivnut is fairly small. It's similar to using a nut with no washer. Perhaps not surprising is then one solution is to put backing to spread the load over a larger area, like putting a fender washer behind the sheet metal and sandwich it in when you compress the Rivnut. In more challenging situations even that area isn't enough and the solution is to use a large supplementary sheet of material. Toyota does this in some places with captured nuts, like under the seat bolt tie points where there is a thick reinforcement to the sheet metal.

If you do this just remember to select a Rivnut that will accommodate the increased combined thickness when it compresses.

Another way around it is to use several Rivnuts. It's not quite as simple as two is perfectly double because depending on the forces you might not equally load, e.g. some might be substantially more in tension, others in shear, some in compression.

And of course just how they might fail is important. A 40 lbs tool box at 50 MPH has about 4500 joules of energy, which can do some damage. If you stop something 40 lbs going 50 MPH in a typical wreck (say deceleration in about 250 ms) it ends up looking like 363 lbf. It could be more, too, since that's only 9 times gravity and I think seatbelts are designed for about twice that. I'd probably at least do the fender washer trick. But that's more for an accident instead of trail flops. A 40 lbs tool box at 5 MPH has 45 joules of energy and the force tempo is low and slow, so should be plenty within capacity of a Rivnut in sheet metal.


rivnut_pg30.jpg

rivnut_pg31.jpg
 
Last edited:

Cruisertrash

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
2,881
Location
Denver
Failure strength depends on the size but generally the base material is going to fail before the Rivnut itself does. In other words, you'll tear the whole Rivnut through the sheet metal.

Which is a legitimate failure mode since the area you're using for the Rivnut is fairly small. It's similar to using a nut with no washer. Perhaps not surprising is then one solution is to put backing to spread the load over a larger area, like putting a fender washer behind the sheet metal and sandwich it in when you compress the Rivnut. In more challenging situations even that area isn't enough and the solution is to use a large supplementary sheet of material. Toyota does this in some places with captured nuts, like under the seat bolt tie points where there is a thick reinforcement to the sheet metal.

If you do this just remember to select a Rivnut that will accommodate the increased combined thickness when it compresses.

Another way around it is to use several Rivnuts. It's not quite as simple as two is perfectly double because depending on the forces you might not equally load, e.g. some might be substantially more in tension, others in shear, some in compression.

And of course just how they might fail is important. A 40 lbs tool box at 50 MPH has about 4500 joules of energy, which can do some damage. If you stop something 40 lbs going 50 MPH in a typical wreck (say deceleration in about 250 ms) it ends up looking like 363 lbf. It could be more, too, since that's only 9 times gravity and I think seatbelts are designed for about twice that. I'd probably at least do the fender washer trick. But that's more for an accident instead of trail flops. A 40 lbs tool box at 5 MPH has 45 joules of energy and the force tempo is low and slow, so should be plenty within capacity of a Rivnut in sheet metal.


rivnut_pg30.jpg

rivnut_pg31.jpg
Good info. If you recall though, my qualification was that I don’t want to drop the fuel tank, which I would have to do to install fender washers or a load spreading bar. If I were dropping the tank I would just use through bolts with fender washers.

Each 4’ track has 13 holes for fasteners. If I cut them down, they’ll still have several several points for fasteners. So the entire load isn’t relying one a single rivnut on either side. Hopefully that does the trick.
 

Cruisertrash

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
2,881
Location
Denver
@Cruisertrash do you mean the tie down tracks to be permanent? Could you pop-rivet them?

Allen
Yes, they'll be permanent. They recess into the carpet and have sloping edges, so they'll be out of the way enough to live there permanently. If they were more in the way I'd probably remove them when not in use.

Don't rivets need a tool on the back side? There again we get into dropping the fuel tank which I'm really trying to avoid. I don't know though, I've never riveted anything in my life surprisingly.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13,960
Location
Grand Junction
Yes, they'll be permanent. They recess into the carpet and have sloping edges, so they'll be out of the way enough to live there permanently. If they were more in the way I'd probably remove them when not in use.

Don't rivets need a tool on the back side? There again we get into dropping the fuel tank which I'm really trying to avoid. I don't know though, I've never riveted anything in my life surprisingly.
It's all done from one side, a blind operation.

Untitled.gif

There's structural options that would work. The main hurdle for this application would be the tool. Hand operated tools are limiting to smaller sizes than might meet your criteria.

Screenshot 2025-03-31 at 12.38.10.png
 
Last edited:

Cruisertrash

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
2,881
Location
Denver
It's all done from one side, a blind operation.

Untitled.gif

There's structural options that would work. The main hurdle for this application would be the tool. Hand operated tools are limiting to smaller sizes than might meet your criteria.

Screenshot 2025-03-31 at 12.38.10.png
The track has holes for M6 countersunk fastener heads, so screws are the foremost option, hence asking about rivnuts. Plus if I ever did want to remove the tracks someday it would be easier than drilling rivets. I see that countersunk head rivets exist though.

Looking at the specs listed by Dave and taking 1/4 for an example (close to M6), the max shear & tensile loads are greater for steel rivnuts set in a steel medium. The specs of 18 gauge sheet metal (the English equivalent of the metric size Arakawa used in 60s) is far greater than that. Of course as Dave pointed out load distribution is important. But I think the numbers are sufficiently high enough that it's not worrisome to me.

Again the original intent of my message was for @Burt88 how his rivnuts have been holding up in FJ60-gauge steel. Some quick feedback. I'm pretty sure they'll be plenty strong for my purposes. The intent is to cut the two 4' tracks into four 2' sections. Each will have 6 fastener holes. If I wanted to go nuts I could rivnut every single hole and I feel like that would be plenty strong. Every other hole seems strong enough to me as well. Any feedback from anybody using rivnuts?
 

Burt88

Trail Ready
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
437
Location
Montrose, CO
@Cruisertrash in short, yes they should be enough for light interior cargo to hold tracks that distribute the load. I've used them to mount various accessories throughout the truck inside and out and even on the frame but I have never used them for tie downs and varying tension or off angle situations. But I will put the good ole "that ain't goin anywhere" tension on those suckers.

And yes, they'll probably deform the mounting surface or pull out of the hole before the rivnut itself fails, like @DaveInDenver mentioned.
 
Back
Top