Now thats funny

DaveInDenver

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Some substantive discussion (though a tad dated, still relevant. I think I heard of Wharton somewhere...:)). Far better than going with your gut:
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=446
I think after 9/11/2001 the airlines faced a slightly different problem that was not completely their own. Yes, they shouldn't have leveraged themselves so badly to make their position tenuous, but when a major hiccup to a total cash-flow business happens, not much they can do about it. Getting them through a tough spot is a legitimate thing to discuss. The Big 3 are in this position because of their own arrogance of their market and ineptitude to make good decisions.
 

DaveInDenver

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You are willing to bet a lot of other peoples' money on them not going Chapter 7...
The market move money into investments it thinks are wise and it moves money away from bad investments. People were not willing to buy GM stock for the last year or two because they knew it was an unwise company to put money into. Normally that means they fail and that is exactly what is happening. But since GM could not convince investors or investment banks to take the risk, now they are using their leverage to get the taxpayer to do it. No thanks, I didn't put money into it for a reason.
None of us here believe in a completely, ruthlessly free market. Read Colorado history in the late 1800s. That was a simple, and non-intertwined economy. 'Tain't now.
What are you referring to? We were certainly much more of a frontier economy, but the persistent depression of the late 1870s following the politics in Europe and more so here the banker's forced constriction of the money supply (that deepened after Garfield's assassination) as they were trying to eliminate Lincoln's Greenback. Certainly the railroads here were running roughshod over people, want for a lack of regulation. It was the results of that time that led to the Guilded Age, when the bankers finally rammed a permanent central bank into our system, which has pretty landed us squarely in the mess we're in now. Or are you talking about the labor disputes between the unions (wasn't Leadville where it turned really ugly)?
 

Jenny Cruiser

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DaveInDenver

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No they're not...
Honda market capitalization: $36.85 billion (@ $20.31 based on 11/2108 closing)
Toyota market cap: $99.83 billion (@ $63.68)

GM market cap: $1.87 billion (@ $3.06)
Ford market cap: $3.42 billion (@ $1.43)

Honda gross profit for third quarter ending 9/08: +768,642,000 yen ($8.2 billion)
Toyota gross profit for third quarter: +814,158,000 yen ($8.6 billion)

GM gross profit for third quarter: $3 billion
Ford gross profit for third quart: $4.7 billion

Honda net income for quarter: +123,316 million yen ($1.3 billion)
Toyota net income: +139,810 million yen ($1.5 billion)

GM net income: (-$2.5 billion)
Ford net income: (-$129 million)

Honda total equity for quarter: +4,762,110 million yen ($50 billion)
Toyota total equity: +11,926,992 million yen ($125 billion)

GM total equity: (-$60 billion)
Ford total equity: (-$2 billion)

"Toyota Motor Corp. said this week it would stop production at all of its Canadian and U.S. factories for two days next month."
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/cars/story.html?id=23f22834-2418-4176-96d6-ff03b0dc9d6a

"Toyota will cut the number of temporary workers to 3,000 from 6,000 by the end of March"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=as7PoAA5Oe5k&refer=home

"A top Toyota executive said U.S. auto sales likely improved in November compared with last month, but cautioned that it's too early to offer any firm predictions."
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/11/19/ap5718198.html

"Toyota Motor Corp. to reduce production in U.S. to cope with slowing sales"
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20081120p2g00m0dm003000c.html
 
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Red_Chili

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The market move money into investments it thinks are wise and it moves money away from bad investments. People were not willing to buy GM stock for the last year or two because they knew it was an unwise company to put money into. Normally that means they fail and that is exactly what is happening. But since GM could not convince investors or investment banks to take the risk, now they are using their leverage to get the taxpayer to do it. No thanks, I didn't put money into it for a reason.
Talking about those who rely on GM and the support network of small businesses who rely on it, not investors.
What are you referring to? We were certainly much more of a frontier economy, but the persistent depression of the late 1870s following the politics in Europe and more so here the banker's forced constriction of the money supply (that deepened after Garfield's assassination) as they were trying to eliminate Lincoln's Greenback. Certainly the railroads here were running roughshod over people, want for a lack of regulation. It was the results of that time that led to the Guilded Age, when the bankers finally rammed a permanent central bank into our system, which has pretty landed us squarely in the mess we're in now. Or are you talking about the labor disputes between the unions (wasn't Leadville where it turned really ugly)?
All of that plus the panics, with no safety rails. I could debate you on whether the central bank causes crashes or softens them. The swings of a truly free market are ruthless indeed. It is the little guy who gets creamed; as you note investors generally can move light on their feet while someone dependent on the infrastructure for a livelihood cannot.
 

Red_Chili

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I think it's the Trilateral Commission...
http://afgen.com/trilateral.html








Norton.gif

;)
 

Jenny Cruiser

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Honda market capitalization: $36.85 billion (@ $20.31 based on 11/2108 closing)
Toyota market cap: $99.83 billion (@ $63.68)

GM market cap: $1.87 billion (@ $3.06)
Ford market cap: $3.42 billion (@ $1.43)

Honda gross profit for third quarter ending 9/08: +768,642,000 yen ($8.2 billion)
Toyota gross profit for third quarter: +814,158,000 yen ($8.6 billion)

GM gross profit for third quarter: $3 billion
Ford gross profit for third quart: $4.7 billion

Honda net income for quarter: +123,316 million yen ($1.3 billion)
Toyota net income: +139,810 million yen ($1.5 billion)

GM net income: (-$2.5 billion)
Ford net income: (-$129 million)

Honda total equity for quarter: +4,762,110 million yen ($50 billion)
Toyota total equity: +11,926,992 million yen ($125 billion)

GM total equity: (-$60 billion)
Ford total equity: (-$2 billion)

What do you have on Nissan?
 

Red_Chili

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DaveInDenver

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No sale though. Business cycles (in far greater extremes) predate central banking, as the first link alludes.
Never said that they didn't exist. No economy is always stable and perfectly fair. The point that von Mises initially asserted and that Hayek, Fertig, Hazlitt and Rothbard have since is that with a private central bank the boom/bust cycle is much more violent and designed specifically to tip the balance towards the elite shareholders and thus transfer and consolidate wealth upward. Even Jefferson, Franklin and Washington recognized the problems with private central banks, seeing how the Bank of England had created economic havoc designed to crush us into subservience and it did, until we revolted.

That is why they wrote the Constitution the way they did. They didn't expect that we would never have a central bank, in fact we did have the Bank of North America while they were drafting the Constitution and then chartered Hamilton's Bank of the United States in 1790, signed into law by Washington. FWIW, when the 1st B of the US was dissolved in 1811 Jefferson was proved right, 75% of the investment in this private bank was foreign money that we'd tried to boot out in the 1770s. They worked their way back into influence through our money. It's also not a coincidence that the charter expired in 1811 and when Congress refused to renew the application the War of 1812 was started. Nathan Rothschild so much as told us that is exactly what would happen. He is quoted in 1811 as saying "Either the application for renewal of the charter is granted, or the United States will find itself involved in a most disastrous war." It's happened other times, Lincoln would not take the Rothschild's money for the Civil War and the Rothschild-backed Confederacy was a dickens to take on despite not having much infrastructure or industry at the start of the war. We were dragged into WWI because of European bankers wanting to bankrupt us.

I would also suggest that economic cycles have coincided with the rise and fall of the power of central banks. From 1790 through 1913, we had two defined depressions. One was in 1807 which lines up with the end of the first Bank of the United States charter (ran from 1791 to 1811). We had a recession in 1837 that coincides with the end of the 2nd Bank of the United States charter which ran from 1816 to 1836. We had a prolonged economic slowdown in the 1870s through the 1890s (probably depression in 1890 or so). This started probably due to feuding over reinstatement of a private central bank during the Civil War (Lincoln rejected the Bank of England money for the war and issued government Greenbacks to finance it). And lasted through the 1880s and 1890s. This was a painful economic time in our history. The Guilded Age was very, very good for the robber barons even though economically the people struggled. Garfield flatly rejected a central bank in 1880, but there was almost no regulation of the market by the government. The Rockefellers, Carnegies, Morgans and Rothschilds used that to consolidate their power such that by the turn of the century people wanted government to level the playing field. I agree that laissez-faire in that case probably played right into the hands of the elite. When we put the Fed in place in 1913 all we did was guarantee that they would never be threatened in that position.

Since 1913 and the control of our economy by the Fed we've had 8 definable recessions (7) or depressions (1) in 1918, 1929-1939, 1953, 1957, 1973, 1980, 1991, 2002. Add 2008 to that, which could be either at this point. So it seems to me that using the U.S. as an example that strong private central banking has done anything but stabilize the economy. Two of our earlier (pre-Fed) periods of recession/depression were under central banks and the the third was when government didn't do anything to stop rampant corruption and exploitation. A central bank in the Guilded Age probably wouldn't have changed anything for the workers, the national and state banks were plenty strong during that time just the same despite not directly controlling the money.

The Founding Fathers did not want private banks charging interest for our money, which was the reason behind the Revolution. The colonies were forced in 1764 by Parliament to use borrowed British money instead of the money issued here by existing local state banks. The Bank of England had taken over money issuance from the King and they didn't want the productive colonies thriving without taking their cut. So they forced us to use British money, which at that time was gold. That drove us into a depression since we did not have any specie (this was before the U.S. had it's own gold and silver) and no way to pay the interest on the borrowed money. It was a move that showed the Founding Fathers that private banking cartels were dangerous, since they can artificially hold and control an economy separate from the will and common good of the people.

The danger is the interest charged on the money, not who's issuing the money. Interest charged on the money can never be paid back unless we run zero liability government (i.e. absolutely no government spending) and continue to collect taxes. Even then it would be decades before we become debt free. But the total sum of the economy's value is only the amount of money in circulation, so interest charged on that money can't be paid. It's above and beyond the amount you ever generate. The banks recognized this and so they structured it so that we never have to pay principle, just interest. That's fine up to a point but eventually the interest compounds to the point where growth in productivity is slower than the growth in the interest and we can't pay that back anymore, either. We're approaching that point very quickly.

My conclusion in all of this (and I'm still just starting to understand a little) is that we've almost never had the system stable like the Founding Fathers I think intended. I happen to believe very strongly that laissez-faire works just fine for the markets as long as access to money is not controlled by the market itself. How the capital gets distributed in the market must be free and fair. If the capital providers also are in the market to make money, then the whole game is stilted from the get-go. There are other advantages to the government solely issuing the money in that they can charge the interest and fund its operation without burdening taxes. It's the primary mechanism that I believe the Founding Fathers envisioned, for if the people felt the government became too burdensome they could chose not to fund it just by not taking loans from it. We now have a coerced system that you are not-so-gently persuaded to support the government no matter how you feel about it. The only way left to protest is by being thrown in jail or an uprising against the government. You can't silently or passively reject support of the system by cutting off it's finances.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson
 

Nay

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designed specifically to tip the balance towards the elite shareholders and thus transfer and consolidate wealth upward

As the wise man said "My constituents are the haves and have-mores".
 

Red_Chili

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Never said that they didn't exist. No economy is always stable and perfectly fair. The point that von Mises initially asserted and that Hayek, Fertig, Hazlitt and Rothbard have since is that ...
And your proposed alternative is... ?
The pragmatics would be-
Step 1:
Step 2:
Step 3:
 

DaveInDenver

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Freeze all government spending immediately at the current level. Not one dime more for any reason, inflation or not. The government can run on a $3.1 trillion for a while, particularly when it's considered that 1/3 of the budget is lost to waste and inefficiency in the government. Plus, that $3.1 trillion was before the current round of bail outs. Ideally I'd like to see major cuts (i.e. cuts with the term billion behind them), but I know politically that eliminating all non-Constitutional government spending is difficult (speaking generously). We are talking pragmatically afterall. If we could just hold it at the current level for 5 years, that would be a major step.
Make the government abide by and enforce Executive Order 11,110 (has not to my knowledge ever been repealed), which would result in the Treasury printing Treasury Notes and not Federal Reserve Notes. E.O 11,110 was written by JFK and made it mandatory that the Fed loan the government money interest-free. That is not a radical concept, if the government is not going to generate the money, then who ever does should have be charging interest to us to provide our money.
Repeal the 16th Amendment and repeal the Federal Reserve Act. This is a primary step, but one I know is difficult to do for a lot of reasons. We could go down this rabbit path as to why, but suffice to say I think too many people right now believe the Federal Reserve is part of the government to make meaningful changes (i.e. Constitutional amendments) in the next couple of years. I do think it's vital that this happens, but I'm afraid the misinformation and misunderstood system is entrenched.

Steps 1 and 2 would stabilize the government so that it does not keep growing. In fact step 2 was already done for 5 months in 1963. Step two would require political will to do the right thing. I think enforcing E.O. 11,110 needs to be done immediately no matter what.


As a pre-step 1, I would quite giving money to every damn company. No reason Citi should be getting $300 billion. Any company who is a shareholder in a Federal Reserve bank does not get interest bearing money. Ever. If the government gives them money it has to come interest-free from the Federal Reserve. Otherwise make the Fed loan the money to its member banks.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/24/business/citibank.php


The 10 Worst Corporations of 2008. Corporations do not deserve our help. Let them fail, people will lose jobs. By throwing money and will at them the criminals at the top only get richer and more bold in their scandals.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/11/23-2


Total so far for all these bail outs is going to top $7 trillion. That's twice our government's 2009 budget and that's before calculating the interest on the loans to pay for it. All of that is assumed to be put off for the next generation of tax payer. That's a major problem and honestly I feel sorry for kids these days. They are going to be feudal serfs to the top 0.1% of the wealthy in a very practical way.

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=arEE1iClqDrk&refer=home


I think steps 1 and 2 are achievable without much pain to anyone. The Rothschilds et al will be unhappy that their guaranteed revenue stream will be cut off. The immediate goal would be to begin shrinking the Federal debt to the point that we could begin paying down the loans. Notice I'm not saying we should run a balanced budget, but actually target running a significant budget surplus. When you include intra-governmental holdings, we have not run a true surplus budget since the 1930s. Even in times were we ran a claimed budget surplus, we still had a debtor government to the Fed for all the principle and interest because we borrowed more against places like Social Security to pay down the public debt. That was a trick that Clinton did to allow us to pay down some public debt, which allowed him to reduce taxes temporarily. Most of your income tax goes straight to pay the Fed interest (this was why we have a 16th Amendment). Total debt increased under Clinton, but some years we were able to slow the growth of government debt a little by stealing Social Security money to pay the public debt.

Farther, what I think needs to be done is to reduce our military presence all around the world. We have troops and bases in something like 130 countries. The time for the U.S.A. to be the world's policeman is over. It is not our job to install democracies in countries and fund nation building. Our 2009 FY military budget is around $1 trillion. By getting out of all these places and U.N. backing we could pretty easily cut the military budget in half and have a very strong military still.


Interesting article recently from the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-waved-goodbye-America--best-hope-Earth.html
 

DaveInDenver

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OK, step 4.

Once the Fed is eliminated and government spending is reduced, we can start to get somewhere. Ideally I'd like to see our spending return to levels that we saw at the turn of the 20th century. Our government spending now is twice the percentage of GDP as it was during the New Deal. That is insane and the reason why we're dooming ourselves to failure. Once the burden overtakes the economy's ability to afford it, the system collapses. The system assumes a continuous increase in productivity and expansion of the tax base. Productivity increases don't come as fast anymore.

The Fed and income tax supporters were lucky that industry provided typewriters, computers, cell phones and all the other things that make us more efficient. Also birth rates are plateaued and have been for a while. The slow down in population growth is a major impulse behind politicians' desire to allow unimpeded immigration, legal or not. They know the system needs as many people paying taxes as it can get to keep the scheme from collapsing. If taxpayers are not added in significant numbers, then each of us must pay more to cover the burden.

If you read between the lines, you'll recognize that I think income taxes are not only painful, but unconstitutional and generally unAmerican. There is nothing patriotic about paying income taxes in my opinion. Each of us doing our part, bull****. If that was true then each of us should pay exactly the same amount or the same percentage. This progressive or regressive stuff is for the birds. It's obviously "To each according to his need, from each according to his ability." Absolute Marxism and it's designed to pit income classes against each other. I'm willing to pay tax as necessary to support things we need. I don't think we can return to the days of raising a militia to defend the country, so having standing, permanent military is necessary. So that is a common good, fine. I think roads should be supported by tolls and taxes on gasoline and license plates. If you don't like it, don't drive. We could go down the list and I'm a believer in the market and population's ability and desire to support each other (even despite high taxes, Americans still give to charities 10 times what government gives them). Health care. Imagine if you could keep 20% or 30% more of your salary (the average taxpayer pays about 40% of his salary into government when income, earnings and all the misc taxes are summed) how much easier paying for doctors would be.

With the government supplying the money, then it can be funded by the interest on the money loaned to the banks and excise taxes. A radical concept, I know (it's only the way the U.S. Government was funded from 1790 to 1913). Since the debt would go down as we stop adding debt interest to the budget, the income taxes would (presuming we could get politicians to split with our money, a big 'if') go down, too. Just about every penny collected in income taxes goes to service the interest on the Federal debt.
 
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Red_Chili

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Step 1 sounds like a plan. But not at the moment IMHO.

So you would eliminate Treasury Bonds as an investment instrument of last resort? :eek:
You are complaining about cycles and spikes now, do you have any idea what would happen if you did this?

FWIW, Citi ain't getting $300B any more than a depositor in the local bank gets $250K. It is a guarantee, a backer of last resort. And Citi gets to pay 8% interest back to the guvmint (us) for loans.

I'm thinking that is a bond I'd like to invest in!!

The gov is saying that if some of the high risk vehicles not currently on Citi's balance sheet move to the balance sheet and must be written down, the government is backing them. This is stabilizing in that it removes some of the uncertainty that is driving the markets bonkers.

Ya gotta read the fine print (even the medium print) on these bailouts, they are far from a giveaway. They also represent equity stakes with a return, and the gov gets to meddle with executive compensation. Those are not the terms of a giveaway, and most corporations would try to be free of them as soon as possible.

I dunno man, I think the apple cart would go from serious bumping to sudden inversion and applesauce if you did all this. Parts of it... sure, needs to happen.

I don't buy that it is Marxism any more than my having bones like a dinosaur makes me a dinosaur (except metaphorically of course! :lmao: ).
 

DaveInDenver

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Step 1 sounds like a plan. But not at the moment IMHO.
OK, if not now, when? There is no "good" time, but all I'm asking is to freeze the budget fer goodness sakes. Why is that hard to take? It might mean the government could not be all things to all people, though. I have to make decisions. Put gas in the truck or turn up the furnance. Pay Kirsten's tuition or put windows in the house. Why should the citizens be forced to live harder than the government? We don't exist to support it and if the burden of the system is too great, the system needs to be forced to work for us.

Yes, I'm a libertarian, summed up pretty well here:
http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2007/11/philosophy-of-liberty.html

So you would eliminate Treasury Bonds as an investment instrument of last resort?
T-bonds are only worthy as long as the government does not go bankrupt and investors don't lose faith in it's stability. FDR declared the government bankrupt (in legal terms the government was dissolved March 9, 1933) after taking us off the gold standard and forced it's confiscation. That hurt a lot of people who owned gold. It could happen again, since we are technically in receivership to the IMF. And if you believe the conspiracy people, the Fed sold off all the gold in the 1930s and we (as in the U.S.) may not have any gold what-so-ever. As it is the Fed handles the transaction of bonds for the Treasury, so they are getting a cut of that, too (i.e when they 'monetize' the debt). The U.S. Government is not the lender of last resort, that's the Federal Reserve and it's backers, the IMF, the International Bank and the Rothschilds, Morgans, etc. Those are the people and organizations who buy and sell the Treasury securities using money created solely on account ledgers.

Even assuming the wacky people are right about the gold, it really only matters if you're a foreign bank investing in a gold backed economy. Even with the government supporting itself using the interest from the money it generates, I think bonds would still be very important to the operation of the government. But it all depends on how much you want the government to do for you. If there is a justifiable war, then buy war bonds to support it. If you think more social services are important, buy Welfare bonds. Just don't forcefully coerce my taxes to do it. I won't ask for anything, I promise. :-) I'm already assuming Social Security is a joke as far as my retirement and it bugs me every day that we get government contracts. I justify it by asking to only work on commercial programs, but I know that is impossible to quantify. So it is I'm a zealot, but I also need to keep the heat on until something less conflicting comes down the pike.

In the end the idea of money needs to be shifted a little. But it's a nuanced definition, where the money represents a receipt for labor or work done, but not a vehicle in and of itself. Read up about the tallies used in Medieval Europe and how it affected their economy. A good book on the subject of money is Patrick Carmack's book called The Money Changers. The use of a debt-free money (literally sticks in the case of tallies) made them simply a way of accounting for the exchange of good and services rather than something with an intrinsic value of themselves. That's the principle that Lincoln used to fight the Civil War with the Greenbacks, a modern day tally that happened to be a printed piece of paper.
 
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