New 99 4Runner need some suspension help

[DaveInDenver]

Thanks for that. We do have aftermarket UCAs on it so it should be pretty good on the numbers.

So max caster, zero toe and hopefully camber will be at zero or slightly negative.

If you have UCAs with significant caster built in you might be careful with the open-ended "max" and rather be sure to ask for "enough" instead.

Point being that Toyota will give a range for values and caster is if memory serves something like 2.5°-to-3.0° and something for toe and camber. If they can hit all three that's great. Do that rather than ended up getting zeros and something like 4° of caster. That would end up with steering that's very slow to center and would probably be under reactive. There's a Goldilocks window where it all comes together.

I'm just suggesting that if you let them know that zero toe/camber is fine if they need to do that to achieve caster as the primary goal. My Camburg arms supposedly have a degree or two of additional caster built-in and at ~2" of lift I still only end up with around 2° of caster with the other values at zero.

That's been true with several different shops and techs so I don't think it's an anomaly and makes me dubious that Camburg actual builds in extra camber. I've heard other UCAs might be steeper, though, so just let them know that factory perfect isn't the goal unless it can be achieved.

 

[lazyLfarm]

Well…everything is in the negative so that explains why it drives bad, however

Now they say they can’t align it because the cam bolts/bushings are spinning and not changing the actual alignment.

They spin it but it doesn’t change really.

So again trying to upsell me. And now whatever they did made it a bit twitchy again.
So they say new control arms since they don’t do bushings so they can align it.

So I guess I have bushings to do at the least on this.

 

[lazyLfarm]

Also, they stated the lower control arms didn’t necessarily move around when prying on them, but when they put the truck on the lift and moveable spots, the tires “came out”

So I don’t know if they are just trying to get me to spend money, or they don’t want to do it, or they are just ignorant or they are actually doing the right thing.

I do know I won’t be putting oreilleys control arms on it with them doing the work.


Frustrated and running out of time before I send her to college in it.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Well…everything is in the negative so that explains why it drives bad, however

Now they say they can’t align it because the cam bolts/bushings are spinning and not changing the actual alignment.

They spin it but it doesn’t change really.

So again trying to upsell me. And now whatever they did made it a bit twitchy again.
So they say new control arms since they don’t do bushings so they can align it.

So I guess I have bushings to do at the least on this.

Do these guys even work on Toyotas normally? Can you take photos of the lower control arm mounts?

Usually there's one of two issues on IFS like we have. Either the bolts are frozen, which isn't unusual at all. The cams have to spin inside a sleeve on the control arm bushing and there's a matching cam on the back. There's a lock nut that holds them from moving normally.

There's a fair number of parts and even if you goop them up with anti-seize all the dirt and water and salt take their toll so you have to cut them out. At that point you have to replace the LCA bushings unless you're very lucky and can drive the cut bolt out. But figure on new bushings, cams and bolts.




This sounds like the opposite of your issue, though.

The other issue, less common but also not rare, especially on trucks that are 'wheeled, is the alignment cams have broken their brackets. The eccentric cams have a wing on each side to move against when you align it. When they shear or fold over the cams can turn but they don't do anything anymore.

The solution here is you have to weld on new tabs. There's various options for pre-fab or you just make them yourself.

This is what it looks like when it folds over. That usually happens when the alignment guy is too tough on bolts/cams that aren't moving freely. In this case a breaker bar is not advisable over a Sawz-All.

 

[lazyLfarm]

Do these guys even work on Toyotas normally? Can you take photos of the lower control arm mounts?

Usually there's one of two issues on IFS like we have. Either the bolts are frozen, which isn't unusual at all. The cams have to spin inside a sleeve on the control arm bushing and there's a matching cam on the back. There's a lock nut that holds them from moving normally.

There's a fair number of parts and even if you goop them up with anti-seize all the dirt and water and salt take their toll so you have to cut them out. At that point you have to replace the LCA bushings unless you're very lucky and can drive the cut bolt out. But figure on new bushings, cams and bolts.


View attachment 106378

This sounds like the opposite of your issue, though.

The other issue, less common but also not rare, especially on trucks that are 'wheeled, is the alignment cams have broken their brackets. The eccentric cams have a wing on each side to move against when you align it. When they shear or fold over the cams can turn but they don't do anything anymore.

The solution here is you have to weld on new tabs. There's various options for pre-fab or you just make them yourself.

This is what it looks like when it folds over. That usually happens when the alignment guy is too tough on bolts/cams that aren't moving freely. In this case a breaker bar is not advisable over a Sawz-All.

View attachment 106377

Great info. Sorry for sounding like a newb. I’ve had cruisers my whole life. 80 series from stock to 5” lift, 40s through 70 series stock to SOA so I get suspension, not so much IFS lol.

I know the control arm was moving before as I tried to self align to see if I could get max caster to move the wheel forward. One of the cam bolts I couldn’t get free so I put everything back.

Probabaly time for a new alignment shop.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The tabs look OK. I'd believe a seized cam bolt and maybe the bushing is torn allowing it to spin.

 

[lazyLfarm]

Also, I know they changed the settings a little Becuase now it drives quite a bit worse than when I brought it in.

Well I suppose I can order new bushings and cam bolts.

 

[lazyLfarm]

Ugh this thing.

So got it back and I wanted to check what they were saying. Well the front cam bolt was loose. I could twirl it with my finger.

The other front one was maybe 20 ft lbs tight.
The rear wasn’t much and the other rear wasn’t moveable at all and part stripped.

So I jacked it up, tightened things up. The cam bolts looked like a chameleon eyes all different directions.

Heard a mettalic ping.. then on test drive bad shaking up front. I think the cv bound up l. 4wd it up a dirt mound and that went away.

So the big freaky thing that happened is steering wheel like lost it ratio to the wheels. Steering went super easy and almost couldnt keep it straight at 5 mph if it wanted to turn. Steering wheel would spin 3/4 with hardly any tire movement.
It seems back to normal now but that park freaked me out.
Tie rods on still
Steering shaft on looks alright
Couldn’t see anything weird when my son steered and I was looking underneath.

Also did find 2 of the tabs gone on the inside for the back. The outside of the back cam gear would spin when loose.

I’m losing my mind, any ideas here?

 

[lazyLfarm]

I’m thinking the control arm was shifting as i don’t think they were torqued all the way down. Would that explain really weird steering while sitting still?

Going to torque everything down tonight but need to repair or replace a tab or 2.

Possibly Bend a tab back and then weld a bead on the back side. The bushings don’t look great, but the arm is moving so I think it’s fix tabs for now then plan on bushings soon.

Could movement in the LCA cause that steering issue?

 

[SteveH]

3rd gen 4Runners have soft OEM steering rack bushings that are frequently replaced with poly bushings from Energy Suspension. Have someone wiggle the steering wheel back and forth (engine running and/or engine off) while you are underneath watching the steering rack. If you see the rack moving back and forth, you need this fix.

You can also adjust the preload on the rack sector gear (big nut - read up online) and that will tighten up the steering. My '98 has the original rack at 265K miles, and the steering is very tight and precise.

You may have other steering issues, but getting the rack sorted out is a good start.

 

[lazyLfarm]

3rd gen 4Runners have soft OEM steering rack bushings that are frequently replaced with poly bushings from Energy Suspension. Have someone wiggle the steering wheel back and forth (engine running and/or engine off) while you are underneath watching the steering rack. If you see the rack moving back and forth, you need this fix.

You can also adjust the preload on the rack sector gear (big nut - read up online) and that will tighten up the steering. My '98 has the original rack at 265K miles, and the steering is very tight and precise.

You may have other steering issues, but getting the rack sorted out is a good start.

Inwill say it did steer good, great actually after the new lower ball joints. It basically had a little wander/twitch and pull to the right.
It went from great steering to goofy after the alignment shop messed with it.

The steering rack is actually new, less than a year I believe.

I know for sure the alignment is off, but the steering rack is just completely new. New lower bushings/arms would basically replace everything in the front end. That is where I have to end up, but I would like it to be at least safe and driveable.


The arms are moving, just not the ones with the missing tabs. So I do have a little time to fix that…if I can get that stripped bolt off the back adjuster now

 

[SteveH]

You might just get new LCAs on Rock Auto and bolt on Toyota ball joints (if that works).

 

[lazyLfarm]

You might just get new LCAs on Rock Auto and bolt on Toyota ball joints (if that works).


After calling the alignment shop and grilling them about tightening bolts, which they denied along with saying the really did anything I know it’s time for a new shop.


The plan is to get new white line replacement lca bushings, new SPC cam adjusters and get that front end finished off. Then take it to get alligned and we should be good to go.

It then would have:
New lower ball joints
New steering rack
New tie rod ends
New lca bushings
New cam adjusters

 

[lazyLfarm]

The gift that keeps giving lol. Decided to just pull and replace arms, then rebuild the OEM arms with white line bushings.

Drivers front cam bolt came out easy and correct.
Drivers rear took some banging, bolt came out, sleeve finally came out
Passenger front, bolt came out, had to cut sleeve, sawzall
Passenger rear fully seized bolt, broke 3 sockets, ratchets trying to budge. Hard to get in there. Getting new blades today, 1/2 way through one side. Angle Grinder went really quick but can’t reach.

1 side out

Another joyous occasion was trying to remove lower ball joint, the tool slipped and Wedged the castle nut and threads when it broke. So probably will have to cut that castle but off and grind and clean up threads Becuase the look ball joint is spinning.

Will have a better plan once I cut the final bolt and can work on the nut on a workbench.


Complicating everything is getting it done before she leaves for college on Thursday, only working on it after work and then not having my shop/garage…it’s currently filled with things from our kitchen/bath remodel.

On the positive, it should be tight driving/steering when done and set for awhile.

 

[lazyLfarm]

So still not done. We had a family emergency complete with helicopters but all is good now.

Nearing completion I hope. So the passenger side steering rack bolts wouldn’t tighten. So whoever put the new rack on broke/stripped the rack bolts and justzipped some new ones on. Problem is you can’t hold them in place as the bracket fully covers it. I’ve seen this instance a few times online.

So had to open the bottom of the bracket up. This is the bottom bolt that just spins.

Then had to cut the bolt off.

This is the bracket we rednecked together. The welds were bad as the gas wasn’t working at first. This will slide up in the bracket and hold the nuts to torque down. Going to paint it for rust resistance.

Cam bolt carnage

Looking good, better be good for awhile

 

[lazyLfarm]

Had to slightly modify it and round the top even to fit in the bracket.

 

[lazyLfarm]

Well it’s done. It needs an actual allignment but I did the the home version for now.

I ended up having to cut my bracket in 1/2 as it was just ever so slightly off, enough to cause a cross thread if I tried. Used a nut on the bottom and all good.

Redneck string toe check/measure and adjust.

Needed a smaller string but this got me in the ballpark to test. You can see how far this was out. Both wheels were pointed out quite far. This also has gotten rid of the tires rubbing on the back fender.

I set the cam bolts to max caster setting. Going to go back and set toe again

It drives alright. Still feels slightly wandering but not dangerous. So it’s prob the allignment fine tuning. Shops are like over a week out.