Lets discuss Tow Vehicle capability spec vs safe trailer weight over our Mtn passes

[Romer]

About 24 minutes in he starts talking about the factors that contribute to stability. He has about a hundred videos ranting about towing so it's hard to pick one perfect video. Here's another one (plus written article) where he rants about pig trailers specifically: https://autoexpert.com.au/towing/how-to-prevent-crashes

It seems like you've already taken that into account with the lengthening of the draw bar and sway bar so feel free to disregard!

Thanks Jimmy. I enjoy him. He is funny and I have learned quite a bit

I don't see from his description and other sources on the internet that my Karavan is a "pig" trailer. They all state if the axle or axles are in the center that is what causes the instability

Withe the extended draw its is closer to 3/4 down vs in the center. Center location is where he states the instability comes from.

This is an Australian Design and hand built trailer that has been around for 20 years. It was designed for the outback and the long highways in between

It has a trailer arm suspension with coils

I bought it directly from the factory in Australia over 8 years ago and have never had a stability issue and I have driven it at 80mph on the highway like the road from the Colorado border to the Moab turn off. The only issue is when it hits uneven roads at high speed, it does sway and I immediately take my foot off the gas which immediately removes the problem. The instability he discussed is sometimes fixed by accelerating to pull on the pendulum.

The tires never leave the ground when it sways. I actually have ordered different shocks recommended by other owners in Australia that will reduce or eliminate the sway. It only happens at higher speeds on uneven roads. I tend to drive this very conservatively in the mountains and curves

In the Australia Forums where hundreds of owners discuss like we do on IH8mud, the only issue has been when a tire falls off due to lug nuts getting loose. I always tighten the lug nuts at the start of every trip and have noticed loose nuts once

It is an amazing trailer, well thought out and designed.

The suspension on this is firm but very flexible and enables me to do these types of obstacles which I wouldn't do in most American made trailers

 

[Romer]

I guess I misunderstood; you had focused a lot in your initial post about towing capability. If it was just getting a daily driver for utility and towing in a pinch, I'd go with a mid-size. I think the Tacoma fits the bill well.

Getting away from the tow debate, I have owned several generations of Tacoma and two generations of Tundra. You've listed almost all new models of vehicle which I understand, so wasn't sure if you're open to a used vehicle. But I found the 1st gen Tundra to be the perfect blended daily driver of being able to tow my ski boat around the front range and still have a big enough bed to be useful. Plenty of power where it was needed and stable at speed.

My Tacoma's bed was a joke and power wise I had to ring the thing's neck to find pulling power. Sometimes "paper-power" just doesn't translate well to real world utility. Even the extended cab's bed was just small; and the double cab is tiny. There isn't anything that fit in my double cab Tacoma's bed that I don't think I could have put into my 100 series with the rear seats removed.

You're right in the 200 being as good of a tow rig for your camper as I personally can think of! A 200 vs a newer Tacoma isn't a huge size difference, and for utility I'd grab a nice trailer that can be moved around by hand and you'll have all the utility you need. Clearly you have great towing skills if you're pulling a KK offroad. But that isn't what you asked about.

No problem Jack. I was a bit verbose and it was easy to get lost in all my text. It is the engineer in me I really wanted to know if it was compliant in a pinch and Dave answered that. Compliance was important to me

Aside from towing, I was just looking at the fact I drive the 40 just to make sure it stays in good shape (Seals lubed) and the Z4 doesn't get a lot of use because my wife won't drive in it

I then started looking at Teslas. $12.5K incentives, lower prices and I could easily just trade the BMW for a Tesla.. But meh, it's just a passenger car

I could have leaned towards the 250 LC or GX550. Real happy with my 200 and would prefer to wait until thee GX550 I6 Hybrid has a few years which would be 4 -6years or so from now. I would see those as a replacement for the 200. After 8 years, still real happy with the 200 and it has no issues so I may never replace.

I remembered there have been many times I wished I had a truck as it is hard to fit stuff in my cruiser, especially with drawers

I then started looking at Ford Lightening's. Lots of them on lots. Found out Xcel won't allow bi-directional charging so you could use the truck as backup power. That would give me 96kW batteries to augment my existing 32kw in my solar setup. But you can't do that here. I measured how big it would be in my garage and a full size pickup would take up too much room. It would fit if I removed a work bench, but still be awkward getting around it in the garage. Looked at the Tundra and it is the same size

I then saw a video on the 4th Gen Tacoma improvements. Coils and disc brakes in the back. Good power. More comfortable and better interior. 14" display and the Tow mode automatically will brake engine or individual wheels if it detects an issue. It also would easily fit in my garage and easily could move around it.

If I am going to swap the 40 and Z4 for a truck, I want a new one. At my age, likely the last truck I will ever buy

As Paul Harvey use to say, that is the rest of the story

This has been fun. I always knew the 200 was a great Tow vehicle and I have learned a lot about Towing Physics and dynamics in this discussion

 

[DaveInDenver]

What do you mean about compliance, Ken?

There's the marketing number (6400 lbs) and there's the SAE proven numbers (3500 lbs).

The SAE test J2807 does real world (supposedly) tests to find a trailer weight rating that is normalized across all vehicles. One of the tests they do is to pull a trailer up the road to Davis Dam in Arizona. That's an 11 mile pull at an average grade of about 5%, going from about 500 feet elevation to 3500.

For comparison the road up to the Tunnels averages 6% from the west side and the Vail Pass grades are 7%. Elevations on both is of course >10,000' at their summits.

J2807 does other tests for acceleration, braking, handling on various flats and inclines.

So I guess I just don't know what the numbers a manufacturer gives exactly mean. There's not many laws that really must be met as far as I can tell. Lots of stuff in the FMVSS about lights and equipment but I don't find anything about capacity. Same in our state laws. It seems to me the manufacturers can claim just about anything they want and are willing to assume liability for.

Do car insurance providers say anything about it? I've never personally owned a trailer heavier than 1,000 lbs capacity and State Farm told me that my policy for the truck covered it.

I genuinely don't know what laws cover us and what a State Trooper is going to ask if you get pulled over or would say in an accident report.

It's like GVWR itself, which people routinely violate with all the steel armor and #OLAF stuff hung on their trucks. A 05-15 Tacoma GVWR of 5,350 is easy to blow through and I know some people see >6K on scales, so they're 15% over GVWR but who would know?

But it only seems to matter when you're commercial or getting way up in weight, like 26,000 lbs. Do you have to stop at weigh stations with a personal RV trailer?

 

[Romer]

Compliance using manufacturers numbers, not SAE test

 

[DaveInDenver]

Compliance using manufacturers numbers, not SAE test

Right. But what do they mean? Toyota says 11,500 lbs combined and that seems like it will be dangerous in the mountains even only occasionally. When you delivered stuff you had to do a WCA on paper but the customer expected running of a performance test in actual environments. I don't know how to judge the margins, I have no idea what I'm doing and that's why I had my brake pedal drop to the floor with that U-Haul I suppose and really just am curious about the wide difference in what Toyota (and all OEMs) claim and the J2807.

 

[simps80]

I submit for your consideration 3 of my all time favorites
First the LT. rare sort of the fancy workhorse with fancy accoutrements optionally

B6x a little easier to find but far less exclusive — think 70 series globally but ubiquitous in its day and tasteful across many industries

Now for the connoisseur more interested in late model technology (read mid 80s)…the magnum came in two flavors the traditional super liner or the more rare M model cab over
These were optional with the E9 V8 diesel very rare and desirable unless you needed a legit capable working engine brake that could haul that heaviest of v8 payloads down a mountain…still the prettiest and most well appointed of the superliners

I imagine any of these will fit the bill for towing the Kimberley in style

I have driven 2 of 3 and ridden in each of these representative models albeit well aged including the first off the line Magnum both cab over and traditional and can vouch for their relative suitability

Sorry if it missed the mark

 

[Romer]

Dave
Vehicle weight with PLD 5400 + 4800 trailer weight = 10,200 pounds total weight compared to the 11,515 pound GC weight you listed. That is 1300 pounds of margin, which is greater than 10% Plus I would likely drain the tanks so that is 400 pounds more margin.

I find the video of the Eisenhower/Summit Pass up/dn a good operational test

I am not launching a vehicle into space. I do not need the margins or analysis I have there.

I really appreciate your providing all the Toyota data to answer my questions. That was exactly what I was looking for. I am amused that you are now questioning the data and results you provided. Everything I found in searching over the last 20 minutes says Toyota is fully compliant with the SAE International J2807 standard and was the first Manufacturer to agree to them.

even the manual you posted says ( For the values posted and I used above)

I looked at the values you posted along with the what I learned from The Australian Physicist and a multitude of other videos that I am comfortable with the answer that they are compliant and will work fine in a pinch. In a pinch I would drive slower and drain tanks.

Compliance means I can show the Police if they should question data showing I am compliant with manufacturers specifications

One thing I have decided to do is get my Karavan weighed here so I have a document on my Karavan fully loaded and will also check tonque weight when I do it

Dave- I am good. Thanks for your help

 

[LARGEONE]

Seems like a lifted Mid size diesel GMC would fit the bill?

I will echo the stopping ability vs the tow rating for CO towing. If trailer has brakes obviously game changer vs towing a trailer without.

 

[Romer]

Seems like a lifted Mid size diesel GMC would fit the bill?

I will echo the stopping ability vs the tow rating for CO towing. If trailer has brakes obviously game changer vs towing a trailer without.

Thanks Paul. Wasn't asking what the right tow vehicle was I am sure that would be a great tow vehicle

 

[LARGEONE]

It’s Tacoma size-ish with a bit more weight and tow features.

 

[Romer]

It’s Tacoma size-ish with a bit more weight and tow features.

I am a Toyota guy and tow my camper to Toyota events so kind of need a . . . . Toyota. That is why my 200 series is still my main towing and offroad truck and looking at the Tacoma for my daily driver

the cliff notes for this thread is can the 2024 Tacoma Off Road tow my camper in a pinch and the answer is yes it can

And my trailer does have Disc Brakes.

Thanks though

 

[Romer]

Went and test drove a Tacoma today and looked over the Tundra. I see that Tundra prices are dropping sitting on lots so prices are not that far apart My wife and I both agreed it was too big and we both preferred the Tacoma.