LC100 - getting rear DC plug to get power with ignition off for fridge.

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100%.

I used 8 AWG, though.

But that's mostly just because I had spools of that and terminals for it.

I'm still curious the reasoning behind jamming the normally open relay contacts to be closed like that over a jumper.
For one thing, the people who recommended using a jumper also mentioned voltage drops and overheating wires. I saw the pictures of the jumper and didn't like the way it looked either. So I thought reusing the factory equipment would work better and look better.
Since I measured only miniscule voltage drop, only consistent with the amount of wiring involved, and the fridge runs great, I guess I was correct.
 

DaveInDenver

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For one thing, the people who recommended using a jumper also mentioned voltage drops and overheating wires. I saw the pictures of the jumper and didn't like the way it looked either. So I thought reusing the factory equipment would work better and look better.
Since I measured only miniscule voltage drop, only consistent with the amount of wiring involved, and the fridge runs great, I guess I was correct.
The voltage drop is due to the factory wiring, not the relay or replacing it with a jumper. You probably didn't read my novella. Almost no one does, I know that.

The way you measured voltage drop isn't the whole story. What is the voltage with a load, e.g. the fridge, present? And the main issue isn't rated consumption but compressor motor start-up voltage drop and for that you need different test equipment.

The jumper is kind of a kludge but jamming something against the contact spring in a relay isn't the best idea either. I'll only suggest looking into contact arcing as to why.

I know, I know, STFU egghead. But just putting it out there because arcing under the hood near fuel fumes is generally something to avoid.
 
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The voltage drop is due to the factory wiring, not the relay or replacing it with a jumper. You probably didn't read my novella. Almost no one does, I know that.

The way you measured voltage drop isn't the whole story. What is the voltage with a load, e.g. the fridge, present? And the main issue isn't rated consumption but compressor motor start-up voltage drop and for that you need different test equipment.

The jumper is kind of a kludge but jamming something against the contact spring in a relay isn't the best idea either. I'll only suggest looking into contact arcing as to why.

I know, I know, STFU egghead. But just putting it out there because arcing under the hood near fuel fumes is generally something to avoid.
Does it arc every time the relay is activated under normal operation?

Literally so egg-heady that it was past my full comprehension. I believe the concern is that the diameter of the factory wiring is small enough that, under the load of some compressors (which can be observed by calculating voltage drop), can overheat/melt/catch fire? Which is why I need to run a new wire?
 

Inukshuk

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I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed,
100%

Whoops, meant to say that for this next bit

but I will *highly* recommend running a dedicated 6AWG line directly from the battery to your fridge.
Fridges have power need AND low voltage protections. They need proper size wire and the secure connection of a two-prong screw (many of you may not know is already in your fridge cig plug) or powerpole type. This solves most everyone's "my fridge doesn't cool" problem.
 

DaveInDenver

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Long technical junk follows. You are warned, please no more PMs about it. If you don't want to hear it then please just stop reading and look at this relaxing mountain image for the next 5 minutes.

calming_mt.jpg

If you're still reading this time suck, here ya go.
Does it arc every time the relay is activated under normal operation?
Yes, mechanical relay contacts arc each time they are cycled. This is basically a mini spark ignition system. Relay manufacturers know this is potentially a problem, which is why the cases are sealed when they build them. Depending on how critical the application is determines how robust that seal is. Under the hood the fumes aren't super concentrated so it's not like underground mining or refinery. It's usually just glue or they melt the plastic around the edges. The flip side of this is debris and chemicals in the air can cause corrosion to the relay internals so the seals also prevents the relay from failing prematurely.

The concern I have with what you've done is the lifespan. Relays have what's known as normally open and normally closed contacts. This is the state of the switch when the relay is unpowered. When power is applied to the coil the contacts flip to their other state.

If a contact is normally open it's like a switch that is open so current cannot flow and the circuit is off. When the controlling circuit powers the relay it's actually energizing a coil so that a magnetic field can pull the normally open contacts to closed, completing the circuit and turning on the power. That's the click you hear, the electromagnet pulling the contacts.

When power is removed from the relay coil the magnetic field collapses and a spring mechancially pushes or pulls the contacts back to open. The coil creates a magnetic field that is strong enough to overcome the strength of that spring. It's a very old concept that hasn't changed in, I dunno, 150 years.

By jamming a piece of zip tie in their you force closed the contacts, which is fine. It makes the circuit electrically. But the spring is always pushing back against it. As you drive down the road heat and vibration and bumps are jostling the relay around. So the zip tie is slowly wearing down, which causes a tiny gap to start opening, like the relay is neither completely open or closed. Or it moves or falls out. It's a reliability question over time.

If you wanted to do it this way using a better material, like Delrin or something that won't slowly wear down is one improvement. Also gluing the jamming material in place might be a good idea. And then re-sealing the relay case, like maybe a line of super glue or something along the edge.

The jumper wire may look worse but it's better in terms of performance.
Literally so egg-heady that it was past my full comprehension. I believe the concern is that the diameter of the factory wiring is small enough that, under the load of some compressors (which can be observed by calculating voltage drop), can overheat/melt/catch fire? Which is why I need to run a new wire?
The factory outlets are rated pretty high, I think 20A and they are safe for that. The duration of in-rush when a compressor starts is short and the current is probably around 20A or so I'd guess. It's not a melt down issue for the most part, even with factory wiring left stock with the unmodified relay. The circuit is fused, too.

What I wrote was that if the voltage drop is excessive during start-up the fridge low voltage protection can kick in. Many fridges now have a battery protection that will turn them off if the battery gets low. Usually around 10.5V up to maybe something in the 11V range. If you have 20A of current through too small of a wire the instantaneous voltage drop could be a few volts and depending on how long the in-rush lasts and how sensitive the fridge protection is it might be enough to trick it. Then you get into a game where the fridge is constantly trying to turn on, the protection turns it off, the battery not really being dead has its voltage jump back up and the fridge tries again. On and on and on.
 
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Joined
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Messages
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Castle Rock, CO
Long technical junk follows. You are warned, please no more PMs about it. If you don't want to hear it then please just stop reading and look at this relaxing mountain image for the next 5 minutes.

calming_mt.jpg

If you're still reading this time suck, here ya go.

Yes, mechanical relay contacts arc each time they are cycled. This is basically a mini spark ignition system. Relay manufacturers know this is potentially a problem, which is why the cases are sealed when they build them. Depending on how critical the application is determines how robust that seal is. Under the hood the fumes aren't super concentrated so it's not like underground mining or refinery. It's usually just glue or they melt the plastic around the edges. The flip side of this is debris and chemicals in the air can cause corrosion to the relay internals so the seals also prevents the relay from failing prematurely.

The concern I have with what you've done is the lifespan. Relays have what's known as normally open and normally closed contacts. This is the state of the switch when the relay is unpowered. When power is applied to the coil the contacts flip to their other state.

If a contact is normally open it's like a switch that is open so current cannot flow and the circuit is off. When the controlling circuit powers the relay it's actually energizing a coil to that a magnetic field can pull the normally open contacts to closed, completing the circuit and turning on the power. That's the click you hear, the magnet pulling the contacts.

When power is removed from the relay coil the magnetic field collapses and a spring mechancially pushes the contacts back to open. The coil creates a magnetic field that is strong enough to overcome the strength of that spring. It's a very old concept that hasn't changed in, I dunno, 150 years.

By jamming a piece of zip tie in their you force closed the contacts, which is fine. It makes the circuit electrically. But the spring is always pushing back against it. As you drive down the road heat and vibration and bumps are jostling the relay around. So the zip tie is slowly wearing down, which causes a tiny gap to start opening, like the relay is neither completely open or closed. Or it moves or falls out. It's a reliability question over time.

If you wanted to do it this way using a better material, like Delrin or something that won't slowly wear down is one improvement. Also gluing the jamming material in place might be a good idea. And then re-sealing the relay case, like maybe a line of super glue or something along the edge.

The jumper wire may look worse but it's better in terms of performance.

The factory outlets are rated pretty high, I think 20A and they are safe for that. The duration of in-rush when a compressor starts is short and the current is probably around 20A or so I'd guess. It's not a melt down issue for the most part, even with factory wiring left stock with the unmodified relay. The circuit is fused, too.

What I wrote was that if the voltage drop is excessive during start-up the fridge low voltage protection can kick in. Many fridges now have a battery protection that will turn them off if the battery gets low. Usually around 10.5V up to maybe something in the 11V range. If you have 20A of current through too small of a wire the instantaneous voltage drop could be a few volts and depending on how long the in-rush lasts and how sensitive the fridge protection is it might be enough to trick it. Then you get into a game where the fridge is constantly trying to turn on, the protection turns it off, the battery not really being dead has its voltage jump back up and the fridge tries again. On and on and on.
Okay, that makes sense. I believe I heard that this one only makes the "decision" to shut down during the off cycle of the compressor just for that reason.
I currently have it set to 11.1V cut-off value with a 12.4V recovery value. The manual recommends a 15A fuse so I think even the surge draw is less than you are guessing (I saw the specs for the compressor somewhere, but can't relocate them).

So far, I've had no problems with the fridge staying just above frozen (plugged into factory outlet) and running like that for well over a day without charging the battery.
 

DaveInDenver

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The manual recommends a 15A fuse so I think even the surge draw is less than you are guessing (I saw the specs for the compressor somewhere, but can't relocate them).
This statement has been swirling around for a while. I finally got some small thumbdrives so I could pull screenshots from my scope.

Anyway, set up as follows.

  • Channel 1 is a current probe. Specifically a Fluke Y8100 set to the 20A range so output is 100mV/A. On it 2V signal would represent 20 amps.
  • Channel 2 is the voltage at the battery terminals.

I haven't yet felt the dsire to butcher my good Engel cable to measure voltage right at the fridge. All this does is confirm that a fully charged group 25 battery is a sufficient well of energy that there's no voltage drop with this load. That is not a shocking revelation.

This trace is powering on the fridge. So there's an inrush that's probably a control circuit or inverter capacitors charging. It's 15 minor ticks so 3 divisions at 200mV/division. That 600mV peak represents a 6A initial inrush. It lasts about 3 time divisions at 25 milliseconds per division, so about 75ms before dropping back to nearly zero current drawn.

F0001TEK.JPG

Then here's the compressor turning on. That shows a peak of 1.26V and lasts about one division plus a tick or two before settling to the running current. So that's an inush of 12.6A for, let's say, 35ms.

F0002TEK.JPG

Then running mean is 273mV indicates 2.73A with a 47Hz ripple. I didn't have min/max measurement on but we can approximate just by sight that the ripple is varying between about 2.5A and 3A to arrive at that mean.

I haven't done anything to understand the ripple. I'm running from a big battery so it's not a power supply artifact. Must be something to do with the fridge. Whether it's the compressor itself, a control circuit or inverter I can't really say. When I measure the sound 47Hz is peak audio frequency (42dB is the SPL at about a foot away, if anyone's interested) so I assume that's the compressor speed.

F0003TEK.JPG

Looks like there is significant inrush with these fridges. Keep in mind I'm testing my Engel, which is relatively gentle start up compared to a Danfoss. Although they all will be limiting due to the nature of their compressor controllers.

The choice of a 15A fuse doesn't seem off. You could go down one step to a 10A but then you may have to be careful with the time-current game. The time is short enough that a fast acting probably will be fine since the inrushes all seem to be less than 100ms. You'd have to start worrying at about 1 second, at least with an ATC fast type.

Screen Shot 2023-09-13 at 3.00.57 PM.png

However, the argument I've made a couple of times that each time the compressor kicks on the inrush may cause an instantaneous voltage drop I think could be valid still.
 
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