Culvert salvage project

[HoneyBadger]

Here are my thoughts on it. Take from it what you will.

I know we as a club volunteer our time for "Adopt-A-Trail". This benefits not only us, but everyone who uses those trails. I can definitely see the immediate benefit of taking part in those efforts, and I am more than happy and willing to volunteer my time to participate in them.

However, this is something totally different. This culvert isn't on a trail. It's just sitting on the side of HWY 40. And now the FS starts thinking that they want to get rid of it, but doesn't want to foot the bill. So who do they call for free labor? Our Club? Um, ok…

I can see how this might be a great way for our club to show the FS that we're great folks and that we are willing to help keep Colorado a beautiful place. But I say that this is a totally different animal. And if they want to have us remove this monstrosity, then we need to make a trade. Culvert removal for trails. We'll spend our time and money to remove the culvert, but we want two trails, closed in the past ten years in their district, reopened for a two year trial run. And the club would volunteer to add them to our yearly "Adopt-A-Trail" program. After the two years, the trail's conditions would be evaluated with our efforts to keep them clean.

That's my two cents. Seems like a great way for everyone to win all around.

 

[AxleIke]

Here are my thoughts on it. Take from it what you will.

I know we as a club volunteer our time for "Adopt-A-Trail". This benefits not only us, but everyone who uses those trails. I can definitely see the immediate benefit of taking part in those efforts, and I am more than happy and willing to volunteer my time to participate in them.

However, this is something totally different. This culvert isn't on a trail. It's just sitting on the side of HWY 40. And now the FS starts thinking that they want to get rid of it, but doesn't want to foot the bill. So who do they call for free labor? Our Club? Um, ok…

I can see how this might be a great way for our club to show the FS that we're great folks and that we are willing to help keep Colorado a beautiful place. But I say that this is a totally different animal. And if they want to have us remove this monstrosity, then we need to make a trade. Culvert removal for trails. We'll spend our time and money to remove the culvert, but we want two trails, closed in the past ten years in their district, reopened for a two year trial run. And the club would volunteer to add them to our yearly "Adopt-A-Trail" program. After the two years, the trail's conditions would be evaluated with our efforts to keep them clean.

That's my two cents. Seems like a great way for everyone to win all around.

Good sentiment, but it'll never happen. I did the land use work for the club for a while, and it was absolutely depressing.

Opening a trail involves so much bureaucracy, it would blow your mind. They have to get engineers in, biologists, erosion specialists, etc, etc... Its a nightmare. And costs so much money, unless there is another motivation (hippy access, mine site access, etc...) they almost never go through with it.

When they were trying to open a rock crawl track up lefthand in the BRD, it was mind boggling how many different people they had to get in there to okay the route. Heck, even sinking winch anchors was a 6 month process. A member of a different club was a PE in mechanical engineering, and he designed a winch anchor based on the rock type and a load that was something like 10x what even the heaviest truck would be, and was able to stamp the design with his PE stamp. The FS STILL wouldn't use the design until a FS approved engineer signed off that it was okay. And that was going to take months.

I think the only thing we get out of this is some good will from the FS, and the satisfaction of a job well done. The sad reality is that, from what I've seen, even at the BRD meetings, is that the majority of OHV users are irresponsible jerks. The FS hates dealing with people who are a pain, and doesn't want to spend money every year re-doing the same work over and over again, so they just close stuff down to avoid the hassle of trying to maintain something that is continually torn up by butt-heads. Those of us in the minority of responsible and courteous users pay the price despite not having done anything wrong.

 

[subzali]

Here are my thoughts on it. Take from it what you will.

I know we as a club volunteer our time for "Adopt-A-Trail". This benefits not only us, but everyone who uses those trails. I can definitely see the immediate benefit of taking part in those efforts, and I am more than happy and willing to volunteer my time to participate in them.

However, this is something totally different. This culvert isn't on a trail. It's just sitting on the side of HWY 40. And now the FS starts thinking that they want to get rid of it, but doesn't want to foot the bill. So who do they call for free labor? Our Club? Um, ok…

I can see how this might be a great way for our club to show the FS that we're great folks and that we are willing to help keep Colorado a beautiful place. But I say that this is a totally different animal. And if they want to have us remove this monstrosity, then we need to make a trade. Culvert removal for trails. We'll spend our time and money to remove the culvert, but we want two trails, closed in the past ten years in their district, reopened for a two year trial run. And the club would volunteer to add them to our yearly "Adopt-A-Trail" program. After the two years, the trail's conditions would be evaluated with our efforts to keep them clean.

That's my two cents. Seems like a great way for everyone to win all around.

Appreciate your input Travis. Unfortunately that's not the way if works these days with the Roadless Rule in affect and the MVUMs. Isaac is right, there is a lot involved with getting roads added or deleted from the MVUMs.

Remember, we are not obligated to do this project. Brant just thought that we might be interested, because we've been known to do some unique projects (from ATV recoveries to post and cable projects to erosion control in the Hayman burn area to moving large rocks). If there is no interest I or Dan (our new Land Use Coordinator) can tell him that and he will (and probably still is anyway) explore other options.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Obviously the club should consider it for the good will you gain, but is it going to really help when push comes to shove with future closures? It might but I think Brant is happy with the work and hours already so it's really about helping him get more pull within the USFS org if he goes to bat for OHV use or stopping a particular closure. Every little bit helps.

 

[DanS]

Every little bit helps.

Correct.

The other reason I'm in favor of trying to help out here is that it's a step in getting the campground re-opened. It's a small campground, but 10 sites is 10 less dispersed camp sites that we would have to clean up along Argentine.

We've had people squat on our land (which borders the National Forest) so I don't doubt for a second that having more established camp sites in Clear Creek would help with the "out of bounds" camping.

Dan

 

[subzali]

Brant said it's the best campground in the district

 

[MDH33]

Maybe we could drag it onto a flat bed and pull it up to Waldorf? It would be great for target practice.

 

[Squishy!]

Maybe we could drag it onto a flat bed and pull it up to Waldorf? It would be great for target practice.

That's the ticket.

 

[Tramontana]

I just stumbled across this thread...

...and I would be glad to lend a hand with the dismantling of this for the goodwill that it should generate.

I am a 1/2 owner of a Makita 14" demolition saw, and will be glad to bring this to whatever work party(ies) that might happen. That said, Oxy/Acetylene cutting torches would probably be the most expedient approach to this work. I have access to a couple of cutting torches and could probably borrow enough for two cutting operations.

I'm glad to donate the saw time, and even the pre-mix fuel, but from the looks of the photos, this will take lots of cutting wheels and/or oxy/acetylene gases to accomplish, and I could not donate these materials on my own. I "might" be able to drum up some donations but it would be awesome if perhaps the USFS can get some match funds for the consumables costs?

Also, given the size of the culvert, it might be necessary to have a couple sections of scaffold for removing the top sections of material safely.

Lastly, before the club agrees to this project, I would suggest that a number of very important questions would need to be asked and officially answered, such as;

Are there environmental regulations/requirements that would be triggered by cutting this in situ?
Schedule/timeline requirements?
Liability/release waivers?
Disposal of material?
Will any recycling companies accept the waste? If not, where will it be disposed of?
Final clean up requirements?

Cheers!

 

[subzali]

Thanks for the input Boz! I'm sure Dan and others will take all that into consideration when the time comes!

 

[JadeRunner]

My Dad took some pictures of it. It looks like the nuts and bolts above ground are in pretty good shape.

 

[60wag]

An impact wrench would make quick work of most if it. Now whoever ends up inside of the pipe holding a wrench on the backside might was some serious hearing protection.

 

[AxleIke]

Wow, yeah, impacts would be a good choice. Guess we'll have to see.

I think everyone is going to want some good ear protection.

 

[DanS]

Still slowly thinking about this one.

I went out last week and tried some of the not-so-clean nuts and bolts. Will definitely require impact wrenches, and those rusted nuts may be much easier to break with a chisel (yeah, I know they are big bolts and would take a while to chisel off).

Dan

 

[AxleIke]

Still slowly thinking about this one.

I went out last week and tried some of the not-so-clean nuts and bolts. Will definitely require impact wrenches, and those rusted nuts may be much easier to break with a chisel (yeah, I know they are big bolts and would take a while to chisel off).

Dan

I can bring my CO2 tank and we can use an air hammer with a chisel if needed.

 

[AxleIke]

Still slowly thinking about this one.

I went out last week and tried some of the not-so-clean nuts and bolts. Will definitely require impact wrenches, and those rusted nuts may be much easier to break with a chisel (yeah, I know they are big bolts and would take a while to chisel off).

Dan

BTW, what size are the bolts nuts? Would 3/4 drive stuff be more appropriate? All I've got is 1/2" stuff.

 

[DanS]

BTW, what size are the bolts nuts? Would 3/4 drive stuff be more appropriate? All I've got is 1/2" stuff.

3/4 drive might be more appropriate. But all I have is 1/2" myself. I think 1/2" would work though, they appear to be 3/4" bolts, based upon my eyeball.

Dan

 

[Tramontana]

Perhaps an electric impact hammer might be appropriate?

I can probably bring a 7/8" electric impact rotary hammer with my Honda generator.