Chinese drywall...

[DaveInDenver]

So Matt, why do you think it's your or anyone else's responsibility and authority to tell someone not to do something? What are your motivations for not buying Chinese steel? Is it a statement, truly quality related, plain and simply patriotic? Why do you own 3 Japanese trucks and how do you justify them? So for some things you can be comfortable not supporting the American product and while on others you can not?

Trust me, I do not have all the answers in my head. I avoid Chinese stuff as much as possible (good luck finding 100% US-made electronic assemblies) but I'm trying to figure out the reasoning. I used to get upset with Wal-Mart and Chinese junk but have been thinking through it more and it really doesn't upset me beyond that it's wasteful buying several non-repairable or limited life widgets when you could save a little longer and buy fewer quality widgets over the utility lifespan. I think if everyone just slowed down their consumption, decided to either wait or do without a new iPod every year that things would naturally come around. There would be a lot less demand for ultra cheap junk if people decided they didn't really need to keep up with the Jones.

I mean, take shoes for example. There are still good quality domestic shoe producers like Chaco and Redwing, but instead of $95 for Colorado-made Chacos people would rather buy $10 Wal-Mart sandals (with the I think generally acknowledged possibility of chemical issues). So who is the bad person here? The person who spends way more than they had to for sandals or the person just trying to make it against inflation and have some comfortable shoes? And who has in the end spent more? The person who buys a pair of Chacos that last 10 years with a re-sole or the person who bought a new pair of Chinese sandals every year? Then who has created the bigger environmental issue? Then what do you do about it? Impose regulation that everyone MUST buy 'sustainable' shoes that can be re-soled. Who pays for that?

 

[Mendocino]

My apologies. I've removed my posts. These arguments often end with me pissing a bunch of people off, and I really don't want to offend people and lose friends in this club just for the sake of a pointless opinion.

Better that I keep focused on what we all mutually love: the wheeling!!

Cheers guys!

Issac,

I appreciate you challenging my opinions as well as others. We may not agree on everything but you have never pissed me off.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Actually it is not a silly example...Situations similar to your "silly" example are already occurring now in states like CA and NY. It is starting with schools to keep the kids "healthy" and branching out. If Obama is successful in his push for Nationalized Healthcare it will get worse...I don't think it takes too much of a stretch of the imagination to see the government banning unhealthy foods because "they" are paying for your healthcare now

Soda Tax Proposal to Help Fund Health Care Reform Stirs Opposition

"A push for new taxes on soda, beer and wine to help pay for Americans' health care is stirring up more than just the beverage industry.

Advertisers, corn refiners -- even addiction treatment centers -- have mobilized their lobbyists, reflecting how a tax increase for a handful of popular products can reverberate broadly across Washington's interest groups.

The Senate Finance Committee is considering raising taxes on alcohol and imposing a new levy on soda and other naturally sweetened drinks to help pay for overhauling health care. The committee calls them "lifestyle tax proposals," saying the levies would slow sales of unhealthy products that contribute to rising medical costs.

Besides alcohol, drinks with sugar, high fructose corn syrup and similar sweeteners would be targeted, though diet drinks with artificial sweeteners would not. Other industries also are on alert, worried that the idea of "lifestyle taxes" could spread to other products deemed unhealthy.

"Are they going to hit couch manufacturers? School districts that have canceled physical education?" joked Neil Trautwein, health care lobbyist for the National Retail Federation, which opposes the plan and whose members include fast-food restaurants.

Sugar producers and manufacturers of sweetened foods are opposed, as are dairy farmers and milk processors, since chocolate milk would be hit. Alcohol retailers want to go the opposite way, pushing for a cut in the existing tax on their products. That tax ranges from 21 cents per bottle of wine to 33 cents per six-pack of beer to $2.14 per fifth of hard liquor."

 

[subzali]

Matt,
I wonder if you speak of engineering companies who are REGULATED not to by material from outside the U.S.? For example the airline industry. We fabricate parts for the airline industry that has nothing to do with the operation of the planes/helicopters in any way, but we have to certify that the material is completely U.S. made.
Or are you speaking of high end projects that demand expensive certified material. Don't misinterpret what I am saying, I can have the Chinese steel I use certified for just about any purpose, the Chinese aren't that selective. They want all of the pie. BUT there are things that will sell at higher prices because MADE WITH US STEEL was in the description.

Only the companies who are regulated or possibly ISO certified require those material in our industry. The engineers might draw it up that way, but when it comes to the bottom line the buyers and the officers might decide Chinese steel isn't bad, which is what we deal with every day.

Can't fix stupid. You can just help it along so that you don't become infected.

I know what you're saying. We have built pressure vessels for clients using Chinese steel that has been ASME certified. They passed the MTR analysis, the hydrotesting, and everything, which is pretty rigorous, and they are fine in service. But there are some clients (not regulated, and not government) that go a step beyond ASME and say they want domestic products, or products from only certain countries that have little to no quality assurance problems (Japanese steel for example is very high quality as a whole). It's small (compared to government entities) companies regulating themselves and buying from suppliers they choose based on a clean track record. Are they paying more? Maybe. You may argue that they're wasting their money because the alternate materials pass ASME reporting every day. But I think their argument would be that there have been enough instances where a box of bolts that were stamped as A325 were not actually A325 bolts, and rather than find out that they were the 1% exclusion to the rule of generally good ASME materials from China when one of their skids comes crashing down on one of their operators, they choose to not buy ANY materials from China. If enough people did that it would send the message that no CRAP is allowed. But it takes a large group, either a large group of individual companies and instances or government regulation.

So Matt, why do you think it's your or anyone else's responsibility and authority to tell someone not to do something? What are your motivations for not buying Chinese steel? Is it a statement, truly quality related, plain and simply patriotic? Why do you own 3 Japanese trucks and how do you justify them? So for some things you can be comfortable not supporting the American product and while on others you can not?

Trust me, I do not have all the answers in my head. I avoid Chinese stuff as much as possible (good luck finding 100% US-made electronic assemblies) but I'm trying to figure out the reasoning. I used to get upset with Wal-Mart and Chinese junk but have been thinking through it more and it really doesn't upset me beyond that it's wasteful buying several non-repairable or limited life widgets when you could save a little longer and buy fewer quality widgets over the utility lifespan. I think if everyone just slowed down their consumption, decided to either wait or do without a new iPod every year that things would naturally come around. There would be a lot less demand for ultra cheap junk if people decided they didn't really need to keep up with the Jones.

I mean, take shoes for example. There are still good quality domestic shoe producers like Chaco and Redwing, but instead of $95 for Colorado-made Chacos people would rather buy $10 Wal-Mart sandals (with the I think generally acknowledged possibility of chemical issues). So who is the bad person here? The person who spends way more than they had to for sandals or the person just trying to make it against inflation and have some comfortable shoes? And who has in the end spent more? The person who buys a pair of Chacos that last 10 years with a re-sole or the person who bought a new pair of Chinese sandals every year? Then who has created the bigger environmental issue? Then what do you do about it? Impose regulation that everyone MUST buy 'sustainable' shoes that can be re-soled. Who pays for that?

The only people I'm telling not to do something is to tell those who are making crap to stop making it. Especially those who make crap and brand it as something that's good. You hear about it with golf clubs passed off as Callaways that are really not, ASTM stamped piping and plating that does not pass physical and chemical analysis, and I'm sure you've heard of others that I have not. I'm not being hard on the Chinese except to say that every single time I've heard of these issues it's come from a Chinese factory. If it came from somewhere else I'd be wary about it there too.

In a similar way I am sending that message to the American automotive manufacturers. Though they aren't building anything inherently "unsafe" or branded as something it's not (that's what my real beef is), I think the Japanese have been further along on the cutting edge of technology and quality assurance than have the big 3, at least to my perception and experience. So that's why I have three of them and have no big 3 products in my driveway. But Japan hasn't come out with a big diesel truck yet, so if that's what I needed then of course I'd have a big 3 item, and I would acknowledge that there *might* be a difference in fit, finish, and quality of vehicle. But there might not, it might be the best vehicle I've ever owned. I think that this thinking is in the spirit of free market capitalism, and as far as American patriotism goes I think that American companies also have to realize that there is a free world market now as well and they have to keep up.

I don't have a problem with cheap products if they're marketed that way. If all you can afford is cheap $2 sandals from China or the US or wherever, then go for it. You'll know that you're paying for what you're getting. I don't want to take that choice away from people. I just think there should be an effort to reduce the amount of misbranded and clearly unsafe (not really adhering to ASME code, for example - which is technically misbranded) products coming into or originating from our country.

I hope I'm not contradicting myself, because if I am I don't see it and somebody's going to have to point it out. Nicely please

 

[subzali]

It goes to what people value too. Like me, I will pay the extra money for Chaco, Red Wing, Woodley's Furniture, etc. to know that I have a quality product and also to go the extra mile and know it was made in the U.S.

But I've been known to go to Harbor Freight to pick up a 1/4" torque wrench (probably from China) because I didn't want to spend $220 on a Snap-On one.

And I'm sure other people don't give a rip that their shoes may just plain fall apart some day, they're more interested that their cookware is U.S.-made or something. I guess it depends on what you really choose to care about, and I can't say that I choose U.S. made every time and I can't say that I avoid Chinese products every time, and I can't say I spend top dollar every time and I can't say I am a cheapskate every time. It depends on what I care to spend time thinking about, and I'm sure that goes the same with everybody.

It just pisses me off that some of these things are pretty major and slip by us and there's really nothing to be done about it.

 

[nakman]

Cpsia

enter the Consumer Products Safety Improvement Act, your salvation is near..

from http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=208476

Tenenbaum addressed several other issues, saying:

--The agency has contracted with two private laboratories to perform tests on drywall imported from China. For months now, people in Florida, Louisiana and other states have complained about drywall from China that they say is making them sick and turning copper and other wiring in their homes black. They also blame it for a "rotten egg" smell in their homes.

CPSC is leading the federal investigation, but Tenenbaum said that so far no one has concluded that the drywall is directly linked to the health issues and corrosion problems.

"It's a mystery why we haven't been able to be more definitive at this point," she said.

The commission expects to have results from its testing sometime in September.

--The commission is working on a plan, expected in September, that would spell out specifics for a new database that the public could search to see complaints and concerns about consumer products. Consumers, she said, could file reports about products that other people could see before purchasing a new item. Tenenbaum said all complaints would be screened to ensure they're legitimate.

--The agency plans to open its first overseas office, in China. Tenenbaum said a small staff would be based at the U.S. embassy there and would help educate Chinese officials about product standards. Many toys involved in a string of recalls in 2007 came from China.

 

[nakman]

Missing iPhone leads to suspicious suicide

No comments about the Consumer Products Safety Improvement Act, eh? maybe just as well..

Ok, how about this one... http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=208594

Chinese Worker Commits Suicide Over Missing iPhone

Chinese Worker Commits Suicide Over Missing iPhone

GUANGZHOU, China (AP) -- An employee at a factory that makes iPhones in China killed himself after a prototype went missing, and Apple Inc. responded Wednesday by saying its suppliers are required to treat workers with dignity and respect.

The dead worker, Sun Danyong, 25, worked in product communications at Foxconn Technology Group, a Taiwanese firm that makes many Apple products at a massive factory in the southern city of Shenzhen, near Hong Kong.

Although Apple and Foxconn have confirmed Sun's suicide, they have not provided details about the circumstances, which have been reported by the state-run Southern Metropolis Daily, one of the region's most popular papers.

There's tremendous pressure on employees dealing with Apple's new products to maintain a high-level secrecy over the gadgets, traditionally launched amid great suspense and a big marketing buzz. Apple is also a constant target of prying journalists, rabidly faithful customers and competitors who make great efforts to try to steal a peek at its latest technology.

Sun was responsible for sending iPhone prototypes to Apple, and on July 13 he reported that he was missing one of the 16 fourth-generation units in his possession, the newspaper reported. His friends said company security guards searched his apartment, detained him and beat him, the paper reported.

In the early morning of July 16, Sun jumped from the 12th floor of his apartment building, the paper said.

Jill Tan, an Apple spokeswoman in Hong Kong, issued only a brief statement about the incident.

"We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee, and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death," Tan said. "We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."

The hot-selling iPhone has helped make Apple immune to the global recession. On Tuesday, the Cupertino, California-based company said its earnings jumped 15 percent in the third quarter -- growth propelled by laptop and iPhone sales.

More than 5.2 million iPhones were sold in the third quarter -- seven times what it sold at the same time last year -- and the spike in sales was partly because of a newly released version of the device, the company said.

One of Apple's most important manufacturing partners has long been Foxconn, owned by Taiwan's Hon Hai Precision Industry Co. -- the world's biggest contract manufacturer of electronics. The corporate behemoth has also produced computers for Hewlett-Packard Co., PlayStation game consoles for Sony Corp. and mobile phones for Nokia Corp.

Foxconn said in a statement its security chief has been suspended and turned over to the police.

The security official, Gu Qinming, was quoted by the Southern Metropolis Daily as saying he never hit Sun. Gu reportedly said after three security personnel searched Sun's apartment and did not find the phone, the employee was ordered to go to Gu's office on July 15.

The security chief said he didn't think Sun was being truthful about the phone, the paper reported.

"I got a bit agitated. I pointed my finger at him and said that he was trying to shift the blame," Gu was quoted as saying.

He added, "I was a little angry and I pulled his right shoulder once to get him to tell me what happened. It (the beating) couldn't have happened," the paper reported.

Local police declined to respond to questions from The Associated Press.

Foxconn executive Li Jinming said in a statement that Sun's death showed the company needed to do a better job helping its employees with psychological pressures.

"Sun Danyong graduated from a good school. He joined the company in 2008. He had an extremely bright future. The group and I feel deep pain and regret when a young person dies like this."

 

[Red_Chili]

It seems like another twist on companies building products overseas - where environmental laws are lax or nonexistent, labor is subsistence level, and costs are super cheap therefore - and keeping their hands clean of the environmental and social impacts.

Some have called it environmental outsourcing. Put the crap in someone else's back yard. Only here, they can wash their hands of employer/employee practices and walk the holy path.

 

[nakman]

So you think there's actually some mafia-like presence exerted by Apple? And they actually had to rub this poor kid out for stealing a 4th gen iPod?

that's pure rhetoric, I honestly don't know what to think... but agree having it all done overseas makes it appear less of their problem.

 

[Red_Chili]

Nope... what I am saying is, they say treat people with respect, and walk away and don't monitor it at all, don't enforce it. Then their hands are clean.

The outsourcing contractor winks and nods and says oh of course we will. Then they do what they darn well please, with big bucks on the line, people mean very little. Pretty common and universal business pressure... no?

 

[nakman]

So here's the resolution: http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=209326

Family Of Chinese iPhone Suicide To Get Compensation
By Peter Enav, Associated Press Writer
Manufacturing.Net - July 28, 2009






TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) -- The Taiwanese employer of a young Chinese man who killed himself after being interrogated over a missing iPhone prototype has agreed to pay compensation to his family, a company official said Tuesday.

Sun Danyong, 25, jumped from his high-rise apartment in southern China last week after officials of Foxconn Technology Group questioned him about the whereabouts of the iPhone model that was in his possession.

Sun was responsible for sending the device to U.S.-based Apple Inc., which contracts with Foxconn, the world's biggest contract manufacturer of electronics.

Sun alleged he was beaten and abused by Foxconn security personnel, who denied it.

Sun's suicide cast unwelcome attention on Apple's notorious culture of secrecy, which tries to create a big pre-launch buzz about the company's products and upgrades. Apple is also a constant target of prying journalists, rabidly faithful customers and competitors who want an early peek at its latest gadgets.

A Foxconn official in Taipei said Tuesday the company would pay Sun's parents a lump sum of 360,000 yuan ($52,600), plus 30,000 yuan ($4,385) every year as long as either of them remains alive.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to deal with the press.

Earlier, Foxconn apologized for the incident and suspended the local security chief who headed up the Sun investigation.

Gu Qinming, the suspended security chief, admitted he grabbed Sun once by the shoulder but denied beating him.

 

[Red_Chili]

52 grand once, and 4 large every year. And that's what he is worth to them. Nice.

 

[DaveInDenver]

52 grand once, and 4 large every year. And that's what he is worth to them. Nice.

So what would be fair comp for getting thrown jumping from an apartment window?

 

[Red_Chili]

That is a question for tort law and a jury. Sounds to me like they got off for about what it costs to treat a few executives to a lunch meeting.

 

[DaveInDenver]

That is a question for tort law and a jury.

That's avoiding the question. What do you think, no ducking and leaving it to the faceless 'system'. Keep in mind that the average engineer's salary in China is about $12,000/year. A jury is made up of people just like you or me. What is a human life worth financially, be it ended by avoidable accident or on purpose?

 

[DaveInDenver]

I should say that I dunno personally what a life is worth and I hate to think about it, trying to quantify using potential earning over some period. Seems wrong to think of our lives like that. I would not make a good actuary. But if I had to say, assuming it was truly an accident, then 5 years lump sum plus some re-occurring payment is at least something. It does smack of, you know, hush money.