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Alternator Amperage Question

gungriffin

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I am in the process of adding a 304 ah Lifepo4 battery to my 100 series. I am going to use it for the standard 12v power supply and also add an inverter for 120v draw. My question is this, can someone tell me how to determine the amperage my alternator can safely produce at a given RPM without overheating? I believe that my alternator is a Toyota OEM 100 amp alternator that came stock on a 1999 Land Cruiser. As I understand it though, the alternator can likely only produce that amperage at over 1500-2000 engine rpms. I would like to add a 60 amp DC to DC charger, but I want it to be okay to charge even if I am idling the engine for a while. Isn't the primary concern with overdrawing the amperage the alternator can produce that the alternator might overheat? So how do I confirm I can power the dc to dc charger safely? Any thoughts from all of the super smart electrical people in the club? Thanks in advance.
 

DaveInDenver

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You are correct, an alternator follows a performance curve that results in increasing power as the RPM increases. You can wind them to work better at lower RPM but they will never be flat. You're also 100% on track to think about heat, which affects both reliability and output. Their output goes down as heat goes up.

typical_alt_curve.png

And don't get into the bigger number game. Sometimes the alternator that is stock can do just fine over a wider range of RPM than a more specialized one. You can't really know without finding documentation, though.

comparison_curve.jpg


Realize too that engine RPM does not equal alternator RPM. There's a pulley ratio that the OEM already thought of to spin it faster than the engine specifically to overcome this problem.

Why I mention this is Toyota also knows the max RPM the alternator can take without bearing failure. At redline the alternator will be spinning faster than the engine. A high output aftermarket alternator that increases low RPM ouput might not be intended to spin at the same max RPM as the stock one. Take for example big alternators are often used on diesel trucks, which might have an engine redline of 4k and you may inadvertently over spin it passing at the Tunnel if used on a higher revving gas engine. There again, need documents to know.

Your second issue is I think more important. One place where aftermarket alternators are usually better is duty cycle. Very rarely are original stock alternators expected to run at full load over extended time. The upside is at idle and lower power the alternator will make less heat, but at 100% duty cycle even lower power and almost certainly at running RPM heat high duty cycle could be a concern.

There's only so many ways to solve that. Ask for lower power, use better cooling. It might be enough to leave the hood up idling. Moving it's hard to say but air flow on the highway should help. I think ultimately it's just going to increase wear-and-tear as you use it more. All you can really do is see how it does and adapt. If it seems like it gets excessively you might have to figure out a way to use a true heavy duty alternator but I suspect that the stock one on a Cruiser is about as rugged as you can get without going to a dual alternator commercial truck approach.

That charger you're considering is 800 watts. That's a lot to ask over long periods. I went with a smaller Victron 18A, 220 watts DC-DC and even that's enough to slightly bog my Tacoma at idle (it's about 1/3 HP). You're considering 4 times that, which gets into about the same load as your A/C puts on the engine.

You know, honestly, look at what the car stereo guys do. A fair bit of it is sketchy but sometimes they find really novel solutions, particularly trying to get more power and better cooling at idle.
 
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nakman

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Ryan you've likely already watched them but there are lots of good videos on this site

And in addition to all your time, that site will also take all your money. super efficient! But the answers are all there if you're looking for plug & play.

My only tech advice is don't rush to finish this before Cruise Moab, as that's probably the one event you likely don't even need a dual battery system. With the presumption that you're going to drive the vehicle every day, and pretty much all day... so long as your main battery can survive the afternoon there's little benefit to having more storage. It's fun to do mods though and show them off though, I get it. :)
 

gungriffin

Rising Sun Member
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Dec 4, 2017
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You are correct, an alternator follows a performance curve that results in increasing power as the RPM increases. You can wind them to work better at lower RPM but they will never be flat. You're also 100% on track to think about heat, which affects both reliability and output. Their output goes down as heat goes up.

View attachment 113590

And don't get into the bigger number game. Sometimes the alternator that is stock can do just fine over a wider range of RPM than a more specialized one. You can't really know without finding documentation, though.

View attachment 113589

Realize too that engine RPM does not equal alternator RPM. There's a pulley ratio that the OEM already thought of to spin it faster than the engine specifically to overcome this problem.

Why I mention this is Toyota also knows the max RPM the alternator can take without bearing failure. At redline the alternator will be spinning faster than the engine. A high output aftermarket alternator that increases low RPM ouput might not be intended to spin at the same max RPM as the stock one. Take for example big alternators are often used on diesel trucks, which might have an engine redline of 4k and you may inadvertently over spin it passing at the Tunnel if used on a higher revving gas engine. There again, need documents to know.

Your second issue is I think more important. One place where aftermarket alternators are usually better is duty cycle. Very rarely are original stock alternators expected to run at full load over extended time. The upside is at idle and lower power the alternator will make less heat, but at 100% duty cycle even lower power and almost certainly at running RPM heat high duty cycle could be a concern.

There's only so many ways to solve that. Ask for lower power, use better cooling. It might be enough to leave the hood up idling. Moving it's hard to say but air flow on the highway should help. I think ultimately it's just going to increase wear-and-tear as you use it more. All you can really do is see how it does and adapt. If it seems like it gets excessively you might have to figure out a way to use a true heavy duty alternator but I suspect that the stock one on a Cruiser is about as rugged as you can get without going to a dual alternator commercial truck approach.

That charger you're considering is 800 watts. That's a lot to ask over long periods. I went with a smaller Victron 18A, 220 watts DC-DC and even that's enough to slightly bog my Tacoma at idle (it's about 1/3 HP). You're considering 4 times that, which gets into about the same load as your A/C puts on the engine.

You know, honestly, look at what the car stereo guys do. A fair bit of it is sketchy but sometimes they find really novel solutions, particularly trying to get more power and better cooling at idle.
Thanks for the detailed response Dave!

So is the easiest way to keep an eye on the output of the alternator by keeping an eye on temps? Can you offer any insight into what temps would indicate that the alternator is seeing overuse?

I will be starting all trips with the battery full, because it is easiest to charge this battery from 120v. I don't anticipate I will ever need to recharge more than maybe 100 amps in total from the alternator at once. This has had me wondering if going with a smaller (40a or 20a) DC to DC charger might make more sense. There is also a model that can be switched between 60a and 30a recharge.

I just purchased one of the last hand throttle brackets for the 100 series that I plan to install. My hope is that by "idling" the car at a slightly higher RPM, I will be able to manage the heat. It will also rock for airing up and winching.

I have looked at a replacement alternator. I found two companies that are USA made and are high quality. One seems to change the winding and one seems to change the winding and the pulley size. I really don't want to change the serpentine belt to a different length for a second time though! As I think about it more, I definitely would prefer to attempt to use the stock alternator to start with. I wish that it wasn't so hard to use the 130a alternator from the 03-07 Cruiser. Perhaps now is a good time to rebuild the alternator and make sure everything is in good working order.
 

gungriffin

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Messages
1,032
Location
Denver
Ryan you've likely already watched them but there are lots of good videos on this site

And in addition to all your time, that site will also take all your money. super efficient! But the answers are all there if you're looking for plug & play.

My only tech advice is don't rush to finish this before Cruise Moab, as that's probably the one event you likely don't even need a dual battery system. With the presumption that you're going to drive the vehicle every day, and pretty much all day... so long as your main battery can survive the afternoon there's little benefit to having more storage. It's fun to do mods though and show them off though, I get it. :)
CM is my motivation to do practically everything to my truck! I am not sure any PM would happen if I wasn't sweating the dwindling number of days. :ROFLMAO:

I had seen some of the Redarc videos on Youtube. I hadn't thought to go straight to their website though. Thanks for the tip. I will for sure check it out.
 

DaveInDenver

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Regarding temperature. Do you have one of those IR temp readers? Alternators are expected to operate in a hot environment and they will generate heat so they can get hot enough that it might seem bad but it's not really.

So the problem here is there isn't really a simple answer but suffice to say I'd like to see absolutely no more than +60°C temp rise based on 40°C ambient. Yeah, it seem crazy but heat itself doesn't immediately hurt the copper or varnish on the windings at that temp, it's more the bearings that are suffering first.

If the case of the alternator approaches 100°C I think you've worked to it's peak. Since we'd like to see an alternator last, though, I'd move that target high side operating down to probably 75°C or so. I'd expect even a consumer light duty vehicle alternator would tolerate that alright.

I'd personally start with the stock Nippon Denso that came with the truck. Don't go down a rabbit hole chasing paper specifications because you may not actually need to fix anything.

You (if you're average) can touch your hand on something that's about 50°C (about 120°F) without burning yourself immediately. It'll be uncomfortable, though. But it's a good test because if your alternator gets that hot (~50°C), which I bet won't happen as much as you think, you're still definitely fine.

My main concern is being DC-DC into a lithium it won't self regulate like lead-acid so when it bulk charges it will want that current consistently since it's a controlled current limit (e.g. both the DC-DC and whatever built-in charge controller in the battery will both regulate it).

That's why I asked about the IR sensor. It's just less variable.

Also don't overlook using a small fan or something sitting in camp. Obviously running a fan consumes energy from the source you're cooling but it might we a worthwhile net improvement.

Anyway all alternators must obey the laws of physics. So even a high output, heavy duty, whatever is going to generate the same waste heat under the same conditions. The difference is that they might move peak output down in RPM, increase peak power, tolerate more abuse is all. Ultimately you'll have to deal with the same heat either way.
 
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gungriffin

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Messages
1,032
Location
Denver
Regarding temperature. Do you have one of those IR temp readers? Alternators are expected to operate in a hot environment and they will generate heat so they can get hot enough that it might seem bad but it's not really.

So the problem here is there isn't really a simple answer but suffice to say I'd like to see absolutely no more than +60°C temp rise based on 40°C ambient. Yeah, it seem crazy but heat itself doesn't immediately hurt the copper or varnish on the windings at that temp, it's more the bearings that are suffering first.

If the case of the alternator approaches 100°C I think you've worked to it's peak. Since we'd like to see an alternator last, though, I'd move that target high side operating down to probably 75°C or so. I'd expect even a consumer light duty vehicle alternator would tolerate that alright.

I'd personally start with the stock Nippon Denso that came with the truck. Don't go down a rabbit hole chasing paper specifications because you may not actually need to fix anything.

You (if you're average) can touch your hand on something that's about 50°C (about 120°F) without burning yourself immediately. It'll be uncomfortable, though. But it's a good test because if your alternator gets that hot (~50°C), which I bet won't happen as much as you think, you're still definitely fine.

My main concern is being DC-DC into a lithium it won't self regulate like lead-acid so when it bulk charges it will want that current consistently since it's a controlled current limit (e.g. both the DC-DC and whatever built-in charge controller in the battery will both regulate it).

That's why I asked about the IR sensor. It's just less variable.

Also don't overlook using a small fan or something sitting in camp. Obviously running a fan consumes energy from the source you're cooling but it might we a worthwhile net improvement.

Anyway all alternators must obey the laws of physics. So even a high output, heavy duty, whatever is going to generate the same waste heat under the same conditions. The difference is that they might move peak output down in RPM, increase peak power, tolerate more abuse is all. Ultimately you'll have to deal with the same heat either way.
The good news is that I bought an amazing BMS for my cells that has a touchscreen where I can turn off charging and discharging separately. So if I am concerned about overdraw from the alternator, I can just switch charging off. I will still be able to discharge even with charging off. If heat proves to be an issue, I will also just aim to arrive home with an empty battery too. That way I can just recharge off of 120v at home.

I don't have an IR gun, but I do have a FLIR camera. That is a suitable substitute right?

I really appreciate your explaination on being able to touch 50c for easy diagnosis. I will definitely make 75c my goal for highest sustained temps. As for a fan, my radiator fan moves some serious air. Especially at anything above idle. I am hoping that will help keep everything in check.
 

DaveInDenver

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Good point about the rad fan. The engine will obviously be running. So hood up, you'll be fine. Probably I'd worry more about letting the truck idle than anything.

Yeah, FLIR is totally fine. Just something to do it scientifically, sorta. Just go incrementally with load and duration a few times in the driveway and see what happens.

You probably won't draw down nearly as much as you think and you probably won't need to use the 60 amp setting to get back each day. Remember this is an energy-time thing. So if you use 60 A-hr overnight you can do 60A for an hour or 30 amps for about two. You don't always have to use 100%.
 
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J1000

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Morrison, CO
For my 100 I wanted to be able to get as many 12v amps as possible for whatever scenario so I did a couple small things. I did the "big 3" upgrade where I upgraded the alternator-to- battery positive, engine-to-chassis ground, and battery negative-to-chassis ground cable all to quality 2 AWG and used heavy duty crimped and soldered terminals. I changed my alternator to a rebuilt one that makes 250 amps total, or over 100 at idle. So I can pretty much use anything at idle. I didn't even give overheating the alternator a thought, really. I'm thinking as long as I'm not welding or something it's probably fine.

I've been able to run and charge my fridge, charge my aux batteries, run AC on maximum, all my crazy aftermarket lights, my radios, cell phone booster, charge a laptop and the voltage stays steady at idle.
 

gungriffin

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Dec 4, 2017
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For my 100 I wanted to be able to get as many 12v amps as possible for whatever scenario so I did a couple small things. I did the "big 3" upgrade where I upgraded the alternator-to- battery positive, engine-to-chassis ground, and battery negative-to-chassis ground cable all to quality 2 AWG and used heavy duty crimped and soldered terminals. I changed my alternator to a rebuilt one that makes 250 amps total, or over 100 at idle. So I can pretty much use anything at idle. I didn't even give overheating the alternator a thought, really. I'm thinking as long as I'm not welding or something it's probably fine.

I've been able to run and charge my fridge, charge my aux batteries, run AC on maximum, all my crazy aftermarket lights, my radios, cell phone booster, charge a laptop and the voltage stays steady at idle.
That is awesome! Could you remind me what alternator you swapped out to?
 
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