3G/4G/LTE antennas? signal boosters?

[nakman]

Say a guy was up in the mountains a lot, but still needed to access the real world and do laptop things. In town this is as simple as turning on a personal hotspot on one of several Apple devices, then connecting the laptop to that wifi network. But what if the 3G reception is spotty, at best? Any way to make that more reliable? any recommendations?

 

[AimCOTaco]

Wilson boosters are popular, I think Inukshuk has one. They have passive units; external ant->amp->internal ant, so no extra wires or rf connections to the phone. They seem popular at least, haven't tried one myself.

3g is not that fast if you get multiple devices up but will keep you in touch on multiples.
4g will support a couple streams, 3g will do for basic office 'real world' stuff.

 

[Old40Dog]

Recommended by Inukshuk. Planning to try one very soon.

https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/weboost-drive-4g-s-cell-phone-signal-booster-kit-470107

 

[treerootCO]

I'm thinking one of these

https://www.repeaterstore.com/products/surecall-fusion2go
SureCall Fusion2Go

The Wilson one I was looking at here: http://www.repeaterstore.com/products/repeaterkits/digital-antenna/DA4KSBR-50U.html

may no longer be current given how fast technology changes.
DA4KSBR-50U

 

[Beater]

anyone is welcome to contact me offline - I do work for ma/pa bell ya know.

 

[nakman]

Thanks for the input, I didn't realize these were going to be $500 that one you posted Dave is for your car for only $200, that's certainly better.. I want this in the house though. I guess I'd just need to find a way to convert 120v/20amp to 5.5V/2A


do you sell this stuff John? Or just know about it?

 

[Beater]

you make it sound like knowledge is slimy Tim...

Listen, Cellular is Radio - you're into ham right? so the same principles apply. The LTE microcells are just hitting the commercial market - 3G are quite common. Give me a ring, or PM me your latest number so I can give you a ring. I can probably help you out.

 

[Seldom Seen]

Listen, Cellular is Radio - you're into ham right? so the same principles apply.

X2

I started Storm Chasing last spring and did quite well making strategic decisions using Wx apps on my iPad tethered to my phone or using public wifi when available.

I felt I could make better tactical decisions if I had more bars in more places so last fall I began researching options for boosting my cell signal to the point I reached analysis paralysis. I gleaned info from other chasers, chaser web sites, and RVer web sites. My main take-a-way was all you're doing is setting up a repeater system.

I lucked out, this winter, on a deal for a satellite Wx receiver so I put the cell repeater on the back burner for now.

I'll be glad to share what I've learned but, like all purchases regarding radios, it would help if you can narrow down your priorities.
-what's more important, Phone or data?
-base, mobile or portable (no solution works well for everything)
-WiFi as WAN. Will you be staying in places where is a nearby hotspot?

 

[nakman]

Data
Base
Staying put.

I have found an upstairs window sill that works pretty good with the mini iPad. But it's 3 out of 5 dots... would be awesome if it were 5?

 

[Seldom Seen]

Do you want to boost cell signal in 1 or 2 rooms or do you want to cover the entire house with WiFi? Doing a Site Survey to determine how much boost you'll need would help.

 

[nakman]

If I can get wifi at the kitchen table, that's pretty much the house. Interesting read on the site survey, thanks... looks like there are apps to measure signal strength, of course, I'll try one of those next opportunity.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Data
Base
Staying put.

I have found an upstairs window sill that works pretty good with the mini iPad. But it's 3 out of 5 dots... would be awesome if it were 5?

No, not necessarily. LTE is a digital signal (FDMA if you want to know), if you have sufficient signal above the noise you get a bit, if you don't then nothing. Getting 3 bars will give a marginally lower bit error rate than 5. Theoretically an LTE connection can do 108 Mbps (based a 20 MHz bandwidth and 64-QAM symbols), although most providers don't give the user that much bandwidth.

I think Verizon suggest their peak max is 50 Mbps after overhead packetizing and throttling. This would assume a very high SNR, probably 18 dB or more (a very, very good channel with very little interference might be 30 dB), from very high signal strength, say -80 dBm. This represents 5 bars and you can probably see the a tower and are the only user. My guess is in a real case your actual throughput is probably around 10 to 12 Mbps with a relatively low user load.

If you're getting 3 bars that's probably around -100 dBm and a SNR probably still 10 dB or so. This means you're going to lose some coding efficiency, 16-QAM, so your theoretical max is more like 72 Mbps and a realistic peak is more like 33 Mbps with an actual throughput likely around 5 to 9 Mbps or so. All my numbers are just guesses, so don't take them as gospel. If your signal strength drops lower, the channel might do 28 Mbps at QPSK/4-QAM ideally, although this is probably where your phone will drop to 3G and the phone may display 5 bars again. The max throughput on 3G is on the order of 3 Mbps, so your real speed will be about 1 Mbps at best. But the BER will be lower and your actual speed will be the same or maybe better than the LTE.

Now the sticky part of all of this the SNR, signal-to-noise. The tower and handset engineers go to great lengths to maximize the signal and minimize the noise. In RF it's all about the figure of merit (gain compared to slew, dynamic range, noise, linearity). Basically how low the unintended noise is compared to the signal increase of your amplifier. If you stick an amp in between the phone radio and the tower radio that has a significant worse SNR performance then you may actually harm your channel performance. You will see 5 bars, which is just a measure of signal strength, but your SNR will go down and ultimately so will your symbol rate compared to a lower signal strength but higher SNR channel.

It's similar to the hiss you hear from a cheap audio power amp. The waveform distortion and background noise go up along with the signal strength when you use a poor quality amp. You are always best off optimizing what electronics you already have first with a better antenna. If an external antenna doesn't get what you want, then make sure you shop for active electronics with very low noise RF circuits. In RF, especially in the cellular bands, quiet power is not easy to achieve nor is it inexpensive.

The other fly in the ointment here is what bands do you target? Different carriers put 3G and LTE at different parts of the spectrum and it's not always the same across the country. It's a lot easier to build a multi band antenna than it is to build a multi band repeater.

 

[rover67]

Basically how low the unintended noise is compared to the signal increase of your amplifier. If you stick an amp in between the phone radio and the tower radio that has a significant worse SNR performance then you may actually harm your channel performance. You will see 5 bars, which is just a measure of signal strength, but your SNR will go down and ultimately so will your symbol rate compared to a lower signal strength but higher SNR channel.

This is what I think happened to us when I bought a repeater and stuck it at our house up near Sugarloaf. The signal was great but I actually lost performance.

 

[Inukshuk]

Wilson boosters are popular, I think Inukshuk has one. They have passive units; external ant->amp->internal ant, so no extra wires or rf connections to the phone. They seem popular at least, haven't tried one myself.

3g is not that fast if you get multiple devices up but will keep you in touch on multiples.
4g will support a couple streams, 3g will do for basic office 'real world' stuff.

Yes. I have the very inexpensive cradle and bought one of the higher gain (also inexpensive) antennas. It works. Happy to loan it to you for a test. My only gripe is that the suction cup mount (from Wilson but sold separately for $15) doesn't work very well.

New name "WeBoost" and style http://www.amazon.com/weBoost-Drive-Signal-Booster-Vehicle/dp/B00RHMFPCW/ref=dp_ob_title_wld

http://www.amazon.com/Wilson-Electr..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=08DEYBFRQSY37NZN3YZD

The more expensive ones for the car would allow you to use the phone outside the cradle, important if you have multiple devices.

I installed a whole house booster at my mom's cabin in upstate NY, with rooftop antenna, house on a mountainside, and went from 0-1 bar with just barely texts going in/out to 4-5 bars and 5.6 megabit data speed and normal voice capability. That was a $350 device. The antenna placement required some tuning and experimentation till it was optimized.

 

[Seldom Seen]

Hey Tim, I found the perfect solution for you at less than the cost of an amp!!!

 

[bassguyry]

Bringing this thread back from the dead...

I typically use my Garmin inReach to communicate with my wife and family while on the trail (both GPS tracking as well as text messaging via satellite). Normally, it works pretty well, but I had some serious issues with it during the Black Bear/Imogene run last weekend (text messaging and location updates completely stopped at one point). I've had one other situation where this happened, so I'm concerned about the overall satellite reliability. This brought into question the "SOS" functionality of the inReach as well, which I find more concerning than anything.

I should also point out that both inReach failures occurred in a pretty open space with a clear view of the sky, so theoretically, I shouldn't have had any issues...

Thus, I'm entertaining the option of purchasing a WeBoost Drive 4G-X OTR to boost cell signals while on the trail. I'm sure it's not 100% foolproof, and there will always be spots where cell service is completely nonexistent, but this seems better than nothing, and would be a nice redundant system when paired with the inReachM. It's pricey, but if it functions well, it seems like a decent option. Anyone have experience with this model or any other vehicle-mounted cell signal boosters (I know @Inukshuk has a WeBoost as well, but I'm not sure if it's the same model)?

 

[Inukshuk]

Bringing this thread back from the dead...

I typically use my Garmin inReach to communicate with my wife and family while on the trail (both GPS tracking as well as text messaging via satellite). Normally, it works pretty well, but I had some serious issues with it during the Black Bear/Imogene run last weekend (text messaging and location updates completely stopped at one point). I've had one other situation where this happened, so I'm concerned about the overall satellite reliability. This brought into question the "SOS" functionality of the inReach as well, which I find more concerning than anything.

I should also point out that both inReach failures occurred in a pretty open space with a clear view of the sky, so theoretically, I shouldn't have had any issues...

Thus, I'm entertaining the option of purchasing a WeBoost Drive 4G-X OTR to boost cell signals while on the trail. I'm sure it's not 100% foolproof, and there will always be spots where cell service is completely nonexistent, but this seems better than nothing, and would be a nice redundant system when paired with the inReachM. It's pricey, but if it functions well, it seems like a decent option. Anyone have experience with this model or any other vehicle-mounted cell signal boosters (I know @Inukshuk has a WeBoost as well, but I'm not sure if it's the same model)?

WeBoost works. Yes get the OTR kit. Its antenna is noticeably better. I have both antennas. https://www.tctmagazine.net/latest-news/weboost-drive-reach-otr-long-term-review

Garmin had an attack. Official statement at https://www.garmin.com/en-US/outage/ "Garmin Ltd. was the victim of a cyber attack that encrypted some of our systems on July 23, 2020. As a result, many of our online services were interrupted including website functions, customer support, customer facing applications, and company communications. We immediately began to assess the nature of the attack and started remediation.
We have no indication that any customer data, including payment information from Garmin Pay, was accessed, lost or stolen. Additionally, the functionality of Garmin products was not affected, other than the ability to access online services. Affected systems are being restored and we expect to return to normal operation over the next few days.
As our affected systems are restored, we expect some delays as the backlog of information is being processed. We are grateful for our customers’ patience and understanding during this incident and look forward to continuing to provide the exceptional customer service and support that has been our hallmark and tradition."

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/4/21353842/garmin-ransomware-attack-wearables-wastedlocker-evil-corp
"Fitness brand Garmin paid millions of dollars in ransom after an attack took many of its products and services offline last month, Sky News reports. The payment was reportedly made through a ransomware negotiation company called Arete IR, in order for Garmin to recover data held hostage as a result of the attack.
BleepingComputer reported last week that Garmin had received a decryption key to access data encrypted by the virus, and that the initial ransom demand was for $10 million.
The attack itself began on July 23rd, and put Garmin’s wearables, apps, website, and even its call centers offline for several days. Garmin confirmed that it had been the victim of a cyberattack on July 27th, as many of its services were starting to come back online. Its statement did not say whether it had paid a ransom in response to the attack, but noted that no customer data was accessed, lost, or stolen."

https://www.t3.com/us/news/garmin-outage-garmin-connect-garmin-future

 

[bassguyry]

WeBoost works. Yes get the OTR kit. Its antenna is noticeably better. I have both antennas. https://www.tctmagazine.net/latest-news/weboost-drive-reach-otr-long-term-review

Thanks, Daniel. I figured the weBoost was a good option. Your review was pretty convincing!

I'd heard about the Garmin attack, but the first time I had an issue with the inReach was last year - long before the attack occurred. The second time was obviously this past weekend, which may have been as a result of the attack, but as the report states, "many of its [Garmin's] services were starting to come back online" after the attack on the 27th. Who knows...

 

[DaveInDenver]

Regards to SOS and emergency a WeBoost isn't going to magically give you coverage everywhere. If you're at a margin of a cell it'll give you more range but if there's simply no coverage there will still no coverage.

InReach and SPOT (which I have) have vulnerabilities but I suspect in the case of Garmin's hack the SOS *should* not have been affected since it's not customer facing on the Internet. When you push SOS on a satellite tracker Garmin (through Iridium) or SPOT (on their own Globalstar) communicate with GEOS back channel.

It would take more troubleshooting to figure out but suffice to say that despite the Internet wisdom both InReach and SPOT generally work but sometimes do not. You need to assume some question of reliability in your emergency planning.

My backup would be a true PLB that does not rely on anything other than SARSAT-CORPAS such as a ACR ResQLink.

 

[bassguyry]

Regards to SOS and emergency a WeBoost isn't going to magically give you coverage everywhere. If you're at a margin of a cell it'll give you more range but if there's simply no coverage there will still no coverage.

I don't expect weBoost to "magically give" me coverage everywhere. I've noticed that on most trails, I'm able to secure a very weak cell signal, but not strong enough to actually send texts or make phone calls. I figure the weBoost will help dramatically in these situations.

InReach and SPOT (which I have) have vulnerabilities but I suspect in the case of Garmin's hack the SOS *should* not have been affected since it's not customer facing on the Internet. When you push SOS on a satellite tracker Garmin (through Iridium) or SPOT (on their own Globalstar) communicate with GEOS back channel.

This is good to know. Thanks!

It would take more troubleshooting to figure out but suffice to say that despite the Internet wisdom both InReach and SPOT generally work but sometimes do not. You need to assume some question of reliability in your emergency planning.

This is exactly why I think having both the inReach and weBoost systems would help bridge any reliability gaps. I'm not going to ditch the inReach for the weBoost, and I understand that there is always the possibility of both systems failing simultaneously. I'm thinking more along the lines of a "two is better than one" mindset, if that makes any sense.