which method for dyneema/amsteel blue splice?

[simps80]

I have a question, I finally got my warn 12k winch back, and am ready to load it with 3/8 amsteel blue I bought a few years ago on the Travis @baja1d group buy....

I am making an extenaion with two tube thimbles, and then the main ljne terminated with a factor 55 splicer thimble.

my question is which method to use for the splice on the thimble.

there seems to be conflicting manufacturer recommendations on splice methods.
The rope manufacturer recommends 1. deep bury with lock stitch, and proper length taper at beginning..

2. the factor 55 end thimble recommends deep bury with same taper, but instead of lock stitch, they use a double lateral pass through at the beginning of the throat, then deep bury. so loop 1 end through laterally, then back the opposite direction, then deep bury, no lock or whip stitch

so the process is same for both for the taper:
Basically 1/3 bury length taper (approximately 24" bury plus 8" taper)
like the first few mins of this:



then Samson says this stitch to lock the deep bury
samson lock stitch:


that works well

the double pass through with deep bury is basically this:


I have been practicing on a 35 foot piece I am going to use as an extension, both seem good, the double pass tbrough is a lot easier

my lock stitching could use some more practice before I do the main winch line if this is the most appropriate way on the actual winch rope with the factor 55 splicer thimble, which is this one:

what say the experts on which method to use? also any other tips or tutorials to share, I like to learn these types of things from others who have more experience..
which is basically everyone, I am a rookie in this synthetic line splicing stuff for sure.

for the extension, I am going to use the samson method lock stitch with these thimbles:

just unsure on winch line itself with that splicer thimble.

 

[simps80]

the next lock stitch is much better, terminates closer to the throat, and is more properly and evenly spaced.
not sure I trust this...I guess is Samson does it this way its good?
the other way with the bi-lateral pass through at the throat seems more secure, but then I have read that cuts down on the load rating of the line itself, similar to knotting..?

 

[J Kimmel]

I've only done the first method...both in the field and at home. Its a pain but it works well. Its like a Chinese finger puzzle, once its complete the harder you pull on the line the harder it pulls together.

Either one will work just fine. If Sampson recommends the other way, either one will be great.

 

[DaveInDenver]

A simple buried splice retains 100% of the breaking strength of the rope. That's what I use with a lock stitch and sailmaker's whip. Those only hold the splice together and prevent it creeping, they don't add anything to the capacity.

If you do a straight bury you need to lock stitch since the splice can slip, mainly when you're handling it without much load. A splice is strong because under tension the rope compresses tight on the buried length, like Jeremy says. But when you're unspooling it can slip since the rope is slick.

The only practical alternative is to do a Brummel lock stitch and then bury the tail, which is what Factor 55 is recommending. With a Brummel you don't need to do the extra lock stitching since the buried length can't slip or creep.

It does in theory reduce the breaking strength as though you're making a knot but with the locking there's no question of it slipping. There is a chance that using a locking stitch (not a Brummel) can cause tearing of the rope fibers when the rope stretches under load. Whether that is true or not I dunno, but FWIW Sampson recommends the plain splice plus stitching (this is the splice they use testing their ropes) over a Brummel.

Either way you need to taper the tail you bury. The stress rise from not tapering the tail is the bigger issue compared to the splice you use.

 

[jps8460]

What mike shows in the video will work to get you moving on the trail, but that’s not a permanent splice by any standard.

The Brummel lock splice on the other hand keeps you from having to lock stitch like a deep bury. But is only possible if both ends are free.

A McDonald-Brummel splice is super helpful in the field if you have a normal (non-passthrough) thimble.

I just carry some whipping twine with me that way no matter what you make a permanent repair.

The main takeaway is make sure you bury adequate rope with any of the splices.

Also for anyone reading this for the future. The F55 fast fid is pretty neat. But, Proper fids from Sampson are $2 and you’ll need about $0.50 with the tape. You can also use a bic pen (1fid is 21xrope dia.)... you really can’t bury too much rope. I think the fast fid is like $50 and the avg person might use it 4-5times in their life.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I have a Factor 55 fast fid that I carry in my truck tool kit mainly so that I can repair any diameter rope I might come across.

But I wouldn't suggest spending money on it 99% of the time. The length of mesh pulling grip on the fid is more gimmick than useful in my experience. It doesn't travel smoothly inside the rope so I wrap tape around it anyway.

If someone is buying tools building a set of decent regular fids and a pusher is better money spent IMO.

 

[simps80]

that factor 55 fid is not worth the money at all, it is nice though when crap shows up on your door in 2 days in an amazon box. I actually liked the mesh bird cagey thing, I actually used that for the lock stitching on the winch extension.

What WAS worth the money was the kevlar shears, holy crap made a huge difference in the execution of a clean, nice taper.

For the winch I wound up with brummel splice with deep tapered bury.
What started all this to begin with was a burned up motor, so here's some pics. I used this winchline grabber by bubbarope to attach the synthetic to the drum, it worked slick.

anyway here's some pics. IH8powdercoat, it literally fails on everything that sees Colorado winter roads on this truck

Here's the kit that will stay in the truck, I love ATC gear

 

[jps8460]

Nice write up dude, I think this is a good and one of the more original posts I’ve seen in a while. You might consider a heat sheath on that dyneema. I’m not completely sold on it, but with the heat generated by internal drum brakes, warn has started putting it on all their winch lines for about the last 6-7 years I believe.

Cheers!!

 

[simps80]

Thanks Jackson,
Maybe you know the answer, but I've read that synthetic isn't "approved for use" by Warn on their winches with this drum size, only on the larger Mxxxxx chassis, so 'technically' I'm taking a risk putting synthetic on this mid size chassis.
I wonder if that is hyped up or a true risk, and does the heat sheath do anything to mitigate that if it is a true risk?

I would imagine/venture a guess that heat sheath is for health of the rope whereas the 'risk' is for damage to the drum, but I'm not entirely sure of that?

 

[jps8460]

Thanks Jackson,
Maybe you know the answer, but I've read that synthetic isn't "approved for use" by Warn on their winches with this drum size, only on the larger Mxxxxx chassis, so 'technically' I'm taking a risk putting synthetic on this mid size chassis.
I wonder if that is hyped up or a true risk, and does the heat sheath do anything to mitigate that if it is a true risk?

I would imagine/venture a guess that heat sheath is for health of the rope whereas the 'risk' is for damage to the drum, but I'm not entirely sure of that?

Definitely risk of crushing the drum (with any warn and synthetic). I have personally witnessed it happen twice on 12s platinums.

Also risk of overheating the rope. The sheath is 100% for heat caused by the drum/brake. Good drum brake practice is to Only freespool the line out (with older warns sometimes near impossible). Try not to power the rope out and you’ll probably be ok.

 

[Inukshuk]

I have been re-reading this post and things I did not understand the first few times now make sense.

Jackson wrote: "What mike shows in the video will work to get you moving on the trail, but that’s not a permanent splice by any standard." The "mike" is the Factor 55 guy, not Mike Simpson who started this great thread. [Edit September 28, 2022 - You should taper even a trail repair. Ropes have been shown to break where the un-tapered end resides.]

The Factor 55 demo video say things that are different than all the research I have done:

A) Brummel lock reduces strength. Its ok to use a Brummel, but I have to ask why would you? Locks are for keeping a splice intact while handling. The lock does nothing when under load. Under load, the bury is holding the loop. So, on even a trail repair, just bury 30" and taper.
[EDIT September 28, 2022: I have come to see the advantages of a Brummel Lock vs. Lock Stitch. Lock stitch can stretch and I have had stitches break. Never had a splice failure though.]

B) You MUST taper the buried tail. Lack of taper = sharp radius which reduces strength. Even for a trail repair, get out a knife and make a taper. Its easy.

[EDIT September 28, 2022] C) under slack conditions that "double pass through" shown in the F55 video doesn't stop creep at all.

Best way to learn this is to read a lot and then start splicing!

As Mike Simpson wrote - the Kevlar shears ($30) are totally worth it! They will replace the already-decent scissors I keep in my shop roll tool kit.