Tacoma Confessions

[waggoner5]

I really like these wheels... Gary are you going in this direction?? You can get them on Ebay.

I don't mind the grill at all, actually like the front end look alot.

I'm not sure yet on tires and wheels. I have a set of the Bronze TRD wheels and may go full retro with them and a matching graphic. Christo will do bumpers, lift etc.

 

[Caribou Sandstorm]

Gary, diff drop also?

I never did the diff drop with the FJC. Never had an issue but maybe would have down the road, I only had 52k miles on it when I traded it in for the 4runner.

I did it for the 100 series but I wonder if less needed for the smaller new IFS models.

Also, I highly recommend doing the SPC UCAs. Makes a huge difference in how it feels after lifting it and allows you to get back to or super close to factory specs for alignment. SPC is Longmont based and I believe their design is better suited for the stuff we do. Christo carries their stuff.

As far as LCAs, I would skip until you bend one but All Pro off road makes great LCA mount boot covers and rear shock boot covers.

Maybe you need to come to the FJSummit this year and see all the new stuff... Will be lots of new Tacos there.

 

[AxleIke]

Gary, diff drop also?

I never did the diff drop with the FJC. Never had an issue but maybe would have down the road, I only had 52k miles on it when I traded it in for the 4runner.

I did it for the 100 series but I wonder if less needed for the smaller new IFS models.

Also, I highly recommend doing the SPC UCAs. Makes a huge difference in how it feels after lifting it and allows you to get back to or super close to factory specs for alignment. SPC is Longmont based and I believe their design is better suited for the stuff we do. Christo carries their stuff.

As far as LCAs, I would skip until you bend one but All Pro off road makes great LCA mount boot covers and rear shock boot covers.

Maybe you need to come to the FJSummit this year and see all the new stuff... Will be lots of new Tacos there.

Being a bit of an IFS nutter, I'm going to disagree with Chris a bit here. But, I know you've been around the block far longer than me, so I'm only posting since I don't know what your IFS experience (wheeling-wise) has been. Certainly not trying to step on anyone's toes.

I do not like the SPC stuff. I bought it originally, and after putting it on the truck, and seeing how they worked, I pulled it back off immediately.

"Adjustable" sounds really good in principle. However, having dealt with constant alignment issues in the past, those arms are asking for CONSTANT torque checking to make sure the adjustable part hasn't moved and you don't suddenly have 8 deg of negative camber. I'm sure its fine for the first few thousand miles, but once things wear in a bit, I had visions of the ball joint slipping unexpectedly while on the highway, and I returned them. Probably on par with steering knuckle stud checks, IMO.

I'd go with a fixed uniball. I went with the icons because of the low profile upper bolt which allows a cover to be put over the top of the uniball. The majority of uniball damage occurs on the top where dirt and water collect and cannot drain. This cap prevents that. I've had mine on for 2 years now and no pitting or corrosion, and the liners are still snug and tight.

LCA skids/strengthening: Wouldn't bother. I have NEVER bent a LCA, and I've beat mine pretty good. They aren't a bad idea, but they are more weight, and I think you'll see very little benefit. If you plan to beat it on the rocks, you may want to consider it, but you are better off getting good skids (aluminum is nice) that protect the LCA eccentrics and eccentric mounts. Those can bend making alignments nearly impossible without repair/replacement. On my old runner, I had to do this repair and its a PITA, because there isn't a ton of metal there, and its easy to rip through areas you don't want to. At least that was my experience.

Diff drop is probably not needed. It helps with higher mileage trucks with stiff boots on the CV's. If you are running a really tall lift up front (3+ inches on the coilovers), its probably a good idea. 2.5 and below, I wouldn't bother. Again, just my opinion. I put one on my new runner, but didn't on my brothers and dads. I don't feel my axles are that much less angled. But, on the other hand, its cheap, and easy to install. Only thing to watch out for: some skid plates (including factory) do not always fit well with the diff drop. If you get aftermarket ones or make them, I'd be sure and do the drop first, and double check it will fit.

Anyway, again, not trying to step on anyone's toes. Just putting out my experiences and points of view on a few things.

Cheers!

 

[DaveInDenver]

Regards to Light Racing/SPC UCA from TacoDane's lift thread:

http://risingsun4x4club.org/xf/posts/281888/

 

[waggoner5]

Picking up the truck today, but probably wont do much until later spring. I will not go too exotic on the suspension at this point because the hardest trail this truck would see is something like Hells Revenge. It also has to fit in the garage up in Breck that has a 6'6" opening.

 

[Caribou Sandstorm]

Being a bit of an IFS nutter, I'm going to disagree with Chris a bit here. But, I know you've been around the block far longer than me, so I'm only posting since I don't know what your IFS experience (wheeling-wise) has been. Certainly not trying to step on anyone's toes.

I do not like the SPC stuff. I bought it originally, and after putting it on the truck, and seeing how they worked, I pulled it back off immediately.

"Adjustable" sounds really good in principle. However, having dealt with constant alignment issues in the past, those arms are asking for CONSTANT torque checking to make sure the adjustable part hasn't moved and you don't suddenly have 8 deg of negative camber. I'm sure its fine for the first few thousand miles, but once things wear in a bit, I had visions of the ball joint slipping unexpectedly while on the highway, and I returned them. Probably on par with steering knuckle stud checks, IMO.

I'd go with a fixed uniball. I went with the icons because of the low profile upper bolt which allows a cover to be put over the top of the uniball. The majority of uniball damage occurs on the top where dirt and water collect and cannot drain. This cap prevents that. I've had mine on for 2 years now and no pitting or corrosion, and the liners are still snug and tight.

LCA skids/strengthening: Wouldn't bother. I have NEVER bent a LCA, and I've beat mine pretty good. They aren't a bad idea, but they are more weight, and I think you'll see very little benefit. If you plan to beat it on the rocks, you may want to consider it, but you are better off getting good skids (aluminum is nice) that protect the LCA eccentrics and eccentric mounts. Those can bend making alignments nearly impossible without repair/replacement. On my old runner, I had to do this repair and its a PITA, because there isn't a ton of metal there, and its easy to rip through areas you don't want to. At least that was my experience.

Diff drop is probably not needed. It helps with higher mileage trucks with stiff boots on the CV's. If you are running a really tall lift up front (3+ inches on the coilovers), its probably a good idea. 2.5 and below, I wouldn't bother. Again, just my opinion. I put one on my new runner, but didn't on my brothers and dads. I don't feel my axles are that much less angled. But, on the other hand, its cheap, and easy to install. Only thing to watch out for: some skid plates (including factory) do not always fit well with the diff drop. If you get aftermarket ones or make them, I'd be sure and do the drop first, and double check it will fit.

Anyway, again, not trying to step on anyone's toes. Just putting out my experiences and points of view on a few things.

Cheers!

All good Isaac. Great discussion. I have had great experience with the SPC stuff. Used them on both the FJC and 100. I noticed a big difference in lane changing feel on highway in both vehicles post UCAs.

I did have a warranty claim on my first pair, and they replaced with a brand new set, no questions asked.

My understanding from the various vendors of these is that SPC's design applys best to our native trails in CO/UT and Total Kaos/Icon were designed for more high speed Baja style trails. This may be more anecdotal than scientific.

I agree on the LCAs, wait till they bend. But I have bent them in both the FJC and 100. Might be poor line choice..

The boots for the LCA mounts are essential.

I need to learn about leafs and all that Part of the truck.

 

[AxleIke]

I think we may be talking about different things. Maybe we have our terms mixed up. On the webs I've always seen LCA refer to the front lower control arms, I.E. The counterpart to the upper arms we have been debating. Also called A arms.

Are you referring to the rear lower links?

If we are talkin about the same thing, it is entirely possible that Toyota switched to a different lower a arm design for the newer trucks. I've only had experience wi the 1st gen taco/ 3rd gen 4Runner arms as well as the late 80s stuff. You may be completely correct if Toyota is using a weaker design to save weight for fuel mileage concerns.

As for the upper arms, IMO, they are necessary to maintain alignments after a lift. The Icons have been great for me in terms of the trails around here, not sure how they would be different than the SPCs. I just don't like the SPC design, but that is personal preference.

Cheers!

 

[DaveInDenver]

I think we may be talking about different things. Maybe we have our terms mixed up. On the webs I've always seen LCA refer to the front lower control arms, I.E. The counterpart to the upper arms we have been debating. Also called A arms.

Are you referring to the rear lower links?

You and I are on the same page, Lower Control Arm, the bottom a-arm, where the coil over bolts to at the bottom.

If we are talkin about the same thing, it is entirely possible that Toyota switched to a different lower a arm design for the newer trucks. I've only had experience wi the 1st gen taco/ 3rd gen 4Runner arms as well as the late 80s stuff. You may be completely correct if Toyota is using a weaker design to save weight for fuel mileage concerns.

There is no particular weakness to the 2nd gen Taco/4th gen 4Runner/FJC LCA. The main reason to swap would be to increase wheel travel, e.g. the Total Chaos solution. Beyond wheel travel there's much better places to spend money and fewer people make a stock-style replacement LCA (Dirt King does, for $1500), most aftermarket are geared to wider stance and more travel. This opens a Pandora's box of issues, though. Steering, fenders, UCA, etc. I'm most definitely remaining within the factory envelope.

There is some advantage to the bolt-on LCA skids to prevent hanging up or wrecking the concentric washer stops. But if you're bending LCA you seriously need to consider SAS. The newer upper arms are stamped steel and quite flimsy. They are borderline R&R parts, particularly since you buy a whole UCA/ball joint assembly from Toyota. The torsion bar and 1st gen Taco/3rd gen 4Runner upper arms are more substantial.

As for the upper arms, IMO, they are necessary to maintain alignments after a lift. The Icons have been great for me in terms of the trails around here, not sure how they would be different than the SPCs. I just don't like the SPC design, but that is personal preference.

Cheers!

Upper arms are IMHO critical at 2" or more of lift, which puts the geometry right at it's factory limits. We'll see since I'm shooting for about 2" to 2.25" settled, but Camburg builds in an extra 2 degrees fixed of castor which should make alignment easy to achieve with my suspension. That was something I always struggled with on Imelda and it took a couple of tries to get the right tech to get on the same page.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Regards to Light Racing/SPC UCA from TacoDane's lift thread:

http://risingsun4x4club.org/xf/posts/281888/

We sell a lot of SPC arms (they are not called Light Racing anymore, never really was made by Light Racing) and have never seen that failure. They had that issue very early on when they had bushings that caused the eyelets to blow out.

 

[Caribou Sandstorm]

You and I are on the same page, Lower Control Arm, the bottom a-arm, where the coil over bolts to at the bottom.


There is no particular weakness to the 2nd gen Taco/4th gen 4Runner/FJC LCA. The main reason to swap would be to increase wheel travel, e.g. the Total Chaos solution. Beyond wheel travel there's much better places to spend money and fewer people make a stock-style replacement LCA (Dirt King does, for $1500), most aftermarket are geared to wider stance and more travel. This opens a Pandora's box of issues, though. Steering, fenders, UCA, etc. I'm most definitely remaining within the factory envelope.

There is some advantage to the bolt-on LCA skids to prevent hanging up or wrecking the concentric washer stops. But if you're bending LCA you seriously need to consider SAS. The newer upper arms are stamped steel and quite flimsy. They are borderline R&R parts, particularly since you buy a whole UCA/ball joint assembly from Toyota. The torsion bar and 1st gen Taco/3rd gen 4Runner upper arms are more substantial.

Upper arms are IMHO critical at 2" or more of lift, which puts the geometry right at it's factory limits. We'll see since I'm shooting for about 2" to 2.25" settled, but Camburg builds in an extra 2 degrees fixed of castor which should make alignment easy to achieve with my suspension. That was something I always struggled with on Imelda and it took a couple of tries to get the right tech to get on the same page.

Yep sorry my bad, no need to replace LCAs - lower A arm., no need for the boots they sell for those, imo.

The lower rear link mount boots are essential, imo.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Yep sorry my bad, no need to replace LCAs - lower A arm., no need for the boots they sell for those, imo.

The lower rear link mount boots are essential, imo.

That makes total sense, rear suspension links on the coil sprung rear of the FJC and 4Runner? Leaf springs present a different set of issues but that isn't one.

 

[Caribou Sandstorm]

That makes total sense, rear suspension links on the coil sprung rear of the FJC and 4Runner? Leaf springs present a different set of issues but that isn't one.

I wondered if with leaf springs you did not even need the Lower link.

I need to get educated on the rear suspension of the Leaf Spring stuff.

 

[AxleIke]

That makes more sense, and yes, I've bent the lower links on my 4Runner too. Those definitely need protection, but are nonexistent on a Taco.

Chris, not too much to learn about leaf springs. They are super simple and easy. They have their upsides and downsides like anything, but from a very basic standpoint, they both suspend the vehicle and locate the axle. On a coil spring set up like the 100 or FJC, the coils suspend the vehicle and the links locate the axle.

 

[Caribou Sandstorm]

This is a long video but cool. Dave you gotta check this out.

"80 Years making trucks, Landcruiser is the standard"

 

[simps80]

About 6:45 of that video.
"...
For land cruiser we don't have a standard, that is the standard, and every land cruiser has to be better than the last one"

Interesting video. Chief engineer, Trucks.
Great job title.

 

[DaveInDenver]

"80 Years making trucks, Landcruiser is the standard"

You'd think after 80 years they wouldn't have these ongoing corrosion issues, then. Such bull. Not sure if it's Mike Sweers or Toyota management, but I think they are ruining the Tacoma long term. A bunch of bells and whistles. Who gives a crap about 3-piece bumpers and Go Pro camera mounts when you get a TSB or LSC notice about every 3 months on the thing? I got another one last month, apparently the rear leaf springs can rust and break, possibly puncturing the fuel tank, so it goes back in for that inspection when I have them do the 50K service. Not that I care, mine aren't broken so I won't get new ones and I have OME springs to go on eventually.

We've only owned the thing a year and some now but it's had to go in for the frame inspection (mine passed, but it's not pristine and I've spent time stabilizing and painting it), a dash board rattle TSB (which still isn't really fixed), clutch recall and now the leaf springs. I do like the truck still, the engine is nice, having 6 speeds is nice, the little bit of elbow room is nice. But it's definitely less well built than my 1991 was and I don't realistically expect to still have it at 25 years old. Oh, and the suicide Access Cab doors are absolutely brilliant. Those are the real reason we kept it, love those.

 

[Caribou Sandstorm]

That is a bummer that the 2nd Gens have this frame rust issue. I wonder if it is an issue of the frames sitting in a Houston Harbor before being sent for paint, assembly.. I don't know anything about this issue, Dave. I will do some poking around in Tacoma World..

In the video, Mike Sweers says he gets all the complaints across his desk. So maybe the frame rusting issue is resolved in the 3rd Gens???

I liked the video, he seemed to be very proud of the brand and model, which is fine with me, I am a Toyota Fan also.. I am excited they wanted to build a Bad Ass Truck, it certainly has got my attention. And that was my first impression when seeing it.

 

[AimCOTaco]

You guys are helping with my lean toward the 200 (it's all just theory for me right now my junk all still works and $ is tight). My 2001 1st gen taco does not compare favorably quality wise when compared to a 1990 mini truck with twice the mileage. I can say that the frame on my 2001 Taco while OK and not going to fail in time for a warranty replacement has a lot more surface corrosion on it than the frame under my 100. I'm the second owner of the Taco (purchased 2004, 30kmi) and it was sold by our favorite dealer to a local. The 1990 had 200kmi and we were probably like the 5th owner (so it was beat but had better rubber, fabric, frame, etc). My 1999 100 has 225kmi, I'm at least the 3rd owner and it started out in Michigan so it should have the ugliest frame of the 3 but the Taco is currently looking a little worse at 125kmi (newest, lowest mileage, fewest owners, all Colorado, best maintained of the 3). So yeah, lets hope Gen 3 Taco is better in the frame rot department. Oh, and also Landcruiser!

 

[DaveInDenver]

The frames for Tacomas are made by Dana in Mexico. The issue (and Dana was forced to compensate Toyota for it) was inadequate finishing. They blamed Toyota was insufficient spec, it had to do with paint thickness being half was Dana recommended but if it was that then why did Dana compensate Toyota? Also the trucks that get frame rust usually have badly rusted diffs, suspension, drivetrains but Dana only supplies driveshafts and frames, so it's not just them. I tend to believe it's got to do with Toyota specs for finish and maybe factory applied corrosion protection.

It frankly ticks me off. Toyota is idiotic for letting this fester. A fair amount of criticism is leveraged on them for making a half open C-channel frame when the 79-95 trucks used a fully boxed frame and that is still the case with the IMV version of the Hilux. It's still a 1-ton rated frame, fully boxed and all of it. Toyota still makes Hiluxes and Cruisers to last several decades while the Tacoma, Tundra, Sequoia are made to make it to the end of their warranty.

It took me a year to really commit to moving forward and selling my '91. I thought long and hard about a frame-off and when that was done I'd sell the Tacoma. But that's not practical in my situation and budget. So I hope our Taco lasts a few years more, it's really one of the least rusty frames I saw for sale to be honest. But in just two winters rust bubbles started forming on the outer rails.

I seriously doubt they've done anything to change it, either. Keep in mind that the steps originally were that only 1995 to 2000 were affected. Until 2001 and newer ones started doing it, at which point they bought back old ones and did frame replacements on newer ones. But they promised the 2nd gen fixed that. Until it didn't and the current recall is for only 2005 to 2008. If in 5 years it hasn't been expanded to 2009+, then maybe I'll believe it's put to bed.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Here's an example of typical 2nd gen rust. I'm willing to concede that frames from people who live/drive on the beach or in heavy rock salt states in the Midwest showing that cancer shouldn't be used as typical.

This is a Kentucky located, 2005 truck after about 7 years. Notice that the LCA, brake calipers are rusty too. It's not just the frame.