Shouldn't the "Politics and Controversial Topics" be a public forum?

TheHoneyBadger

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Messages
1,640
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Pine
This forum isn't an Airport, no need to announce your departure.

If you feel this isn't the place for you, then ok. Your loss.

I really appreciate our other members stating the purpose and nature of our club. I feel they said it very well and I agree 100%
I really love this club and this group of 'Yota folks. Some of the greatest people I've ever had the pleasure of being around. They ignore my faults and shortcomings as I ignore theirs and we go and wheel the shit out of our 'Yotas. We're not here to solve the world's problems, and we all know that. We all meet in the middle around our shared love of Toyota 4x4's. :risingsun
 

Squishy!

Hard Core 4+
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Littleton, CO
If the Rising Sun organization is made up of its members, shouldn't the Politics and Controversial Topics forum be public so potential members can get an idea of the thoughts, philosophies, and ideals behind its current members?
I like this analogy: If I see a guy with a sweet 4runner, I don't walk up and say "Hi I'm Justin! F*$& [insert politician]" No, I talk to the guy, invite him to the club and go wheeling with him. If we end up hanging out over beers or camping these conversations may come up. Or not. Either way they are not the basis of our relationship and the friendship is stronger for it.

why do you get to decide if I am sincere or not by agreeing to post something public? I am not seeing preaching, I am seeing venting and the ability to discuss ones opinions amongst friends. Public discussions like this tend to bring on the trolls
Agreed Ken. Key here: among friends. not the entirety of the internet.
And that is the irony of it. A potential member isn't going to get a good representation of the club from the few people who post in the political section. Instead, they will more than likely make assumptions on the average member based on the comments of a few individuals. I agree that people should think a little bit before they post statements that can be misconstrued so that they don't have to explain themselves better but that is going to be in any situation in life. If we all did that a little bit more AND gave our fellow humans the benefit of the doubt a little bit more, maybe there wouldn't be so much anger towards each other.

There are over 80 members in RS and someone shouldn't make an assumption about the general population of the club just based on a few individual's comments.
Absolutely agree. One person's worth or value is not determined by their political or social views, especially to me. And giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, long term and short should be an aspiration for everyone.

I don't want it changed to public because the private sub-forums are just that, private conversations that don't concern the public.
We moderate the public sections to be aligned with our clubs stated values (like TREAD, Stay the Trail, etc) and that's not possible with the politics section where our values are less settled and NOT a primary focus of our club.

As a 4x4 club, our 4x4 activities should be most prominent and public. The private subs are intended to UNITE membership through exploration of other topics of common interest like they do for ham, 2-wheelers, etc. The political sub is full open nasty and shouldn't be made public.

The politics forum is a place to go if you want to play there but I also see it as a place to store crap as that we need to moderate by moving away from the public space.
We could probably do more to moderate, but I think Matt did a good job on the other thread.


A few years after we launched the current forum, we noticed that a few folks liked to argue about politics. They'd really get into it, couldn't be swayed by the strongest opposing argument, and thought everyone else was a damn idiot if they didn't agree.
My dad (Red Chili) was one of the heated and reasonable people at times. His views have changed in large part to the conversations he had on this forum. What's not to like about that? (even if I disagree with him on a bunch of stuff)

If you want to go be an online justice warrior and use "fightin' words" and sit in righteous judgement of the poor words someone used to express an opinion, I would suggest you visit Reddit or somewhere else. I don't know where else since I avoid political websites like sharp scissors near my penis.
OMG Matt! literally laughed out loud at that one. That's going in my repertoire.

Unlike online-only situations, I value that the Club gives me a place to actually know people I may disagree with on controversial subjects. I have never found someone so inappropriate as to warrant expulsion. If I did, I'd say so. I am fully PC and also centrist in my views.

I have never met a club member who was disrespectful in their disagreement.

I have met club members who listened to me if I had cause to reach out - which I usually do with phone call - and share why their view might be considered or was undeniably offensive. Then in turn I listened to them. We both learned.

"I think if the statements made by its members are genuine, they'd have no issue with making them available to the public and potential members." I fully disagree with this reasoning. Public presentation is not a measure of genuineness. Its merely public. I concede people are more offensive in private. That is good and bad.

RE: "incompassionate attitudes [you]'ve seen" - have you asked that member to meet and talk, or go on a trail and understand where they come from, learn from them and/or give them the chance to learn from you?

"Had I heard the hateful shit in the other thread, I would have reconsidered my membership." And at that time you would only have had an anonymous post. If I think a post is inappropriate, I take direct action. Mods and officers can attest to that.

"Isn't any effort to be more transparent a good thing?" No. People also benefit from private space to express themselves free from random critics. In such private space no one should ever tolerate hate, and should address it immediately unless there is a safety issue, in which case involve people who can help.

"The political sub is full open nasty and shouldn't be made public." I do not go there much, but if it is, then I would like to see us take steps to make sure it stays civil.
Daniel, I have always respected how you approach people. Thanks for setting a good tone for everyone around you.

I appreciate your sentiment. However, while I do like the club as a whole, I pay attention to who I associate myself with. Whether we're talking politics or Toyotas, I still may know the where the person sitting next to me at the campfire stands on certain issues. And if those stances disgust me, I don't want to be there no matter the topic of conversation. I won't allow myself to ignore it.

Rising Sun has a long history that will surely continue on long after I've left. There's a lot of clubs doing a lot of great things and I'm sure there's one for everybody, but I'm doubting RS is the one for me.

Thanks for your thoughts.
If you are not happy with the club I will happily reimburse you from my own pocket. If you choose to stay, and I hope you do, I think you will find these are the best people in the state regardless of where we disagree. Ultimately, having unique beliefs and surrounding ourselves with people who believe other than we do only makes us better people. It sharpens our own beliefs and opens us up to thoughts and perspectives we might never had considered if we only hung out with like-minded folks. That's living in a vacuum and it sounds BORING.
 

Squishy!

Hard Core 4+
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Littleton, CO
One last thought: I will always fight for people's right to express their opinion. Right or wrong.
 

simps80

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,227
Location
Arvada, CO
Exactly


Individuals empowered to screen out material that does not conform to their existing preferences may form virtual cliques, insulate themselves from opposing points of view, and reinforce their biases. Internet users can seek out interactions with like-minded individuals who have similar values, and thus become less likely to trust important decisions to people whose values differ from their own.”

Echo chambers are inherently dangerous for a healthy democratic society
 

Inukshuk

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
6,369
Location
Denver, CO
I'm doubting RS is the one for me.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Sorry that did not work out. Like @Squishy! I'll contribute to a refund so you don't feel that loss and there probably is opportunity here if you stay.

I can only share my 20.5 years as a dues paying member.

My favorite bunch of Toyota nerds! My extended family. We don't always agree but we have a good thing here.

They ignore my faults and shortcomings as I ignore theirs and we go and wheel the shit out of our 'Yotas. We're not here to solve the world's problems, and we all know that. We all meet in the middle around our shared love of Toyota 4x4's. :risingsun
Motion to amend the Bylaws and adopt this as our mission statement.

:risingsun

Nothing more to say here.
 

KC Masterpiece

Hard Core 4+
Joined
May 4, 2019
Messages
698
I am going to jump in on this.... not trying to poke the bear...... I think you are all great people and I have made some awesome friends here. Evidenced by all the thoughtful comments in this thread.

I expressed my opinions over on the politics forum in response to an article that was posted as did a few others. My assumption was that it was an open forum and opinions were welcome. I do think there was some good conversation that happened in that thread and excellent points made on both sides of that issue. I am not an actual rising sun member as I have not attended one of the official meetings and do not pay dues, but I really appreciate that the club has a forum open to non members as well. This club has been a fantastic resource for me and I have met some awesome people who really know their stuff when it comes to Toyotas. I did not join this group to talk politics, I joined to talk about trucks. If someone wants to give advice on the best way to swap and axle, or needs a spare part, I could care less what their political leanings are. That being said I personally enjoy sitting across a campfire from someone with a different opinion than I have. It is much more interesting than staying in my own echo chamber. I do not think I have ever heard controversial political issues discussed in person during a group run. Last weekend there was a great group out on the Argentine run. I am sure we had some democrats, republicans, socialists, libertarians, and even solid axle luddites in that group but no one cared. We were all there to have a good time and do some trail work in the process.

@stustic you and I have met in person and you seemed like a good guy when I sold you that bumper. I have no reason to doubt that regardless of your opinions on politics. Everyone I have met through this forum in person has been a pretty genuine and I look forward to continuing those relationships. I would sit down and buy you a beer any day of the week to hear your perspective on a political issue, but I would rather help you work on a truck. For what it is worth my wife and I make significant donations to various charitable organizations, many that benefit the homeless. Countless hours spent working with Metropolitan Ministries (when I lived in FL), Easterseals, and The Ronald McDonald House. When you actually engage with a person instead of shutting them out it usually turns out that their views are much more nuanced than they appear on the surface. My opinions on the issue are based on my personal experiences in that world, and while I stand by them, I will happily apologize if anything I said offended you that deeply. No disrespect was intended to you or anyone else.
 
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