• Jack-it Night: April 2024 RS Meeting Hey Guest: Wed. April 3rd is the next Rising Sun meeting, and you won't want to miss it. We're doing our annual offroad recovery equipment demonstration and trail skills training aka "Jack It Night." Meeting starts at 6:30 p.m. (early) Click here for all the details.

Rising Sun Driving Skills

Would you be interested in improving your 4x4 driving skills and attend a class to do so?

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 76.5%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Depends on exactly what the focus is

    Votes: 8 23.5%
  • Experience is all that matters

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .

3rdGen4R

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,514
Location
Littleton, CO
Wanted to ask a simple question? I'd like to stop commenting on this question until we get votes counted after next week.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
12,950
Location
Grand Junction
The club sponsors a class or two every year ahead of Cruise Moab with Bill Burke. That is more about leadership and recovery so are you polling for something building upon or completely different than that?
 

jps8460

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
2,911
Location
Broomfield
Happy to help in any way.
 

3rdGen4R

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,514
Location
Littleton, CO
The club sponsors a class or two every year ahead of Cruise Moab with Bill Burke. That is more about leadership and recovery so are you polling for something building upon or completely different than that?
yup! The club does do that, but the focus isn’t strictly on driving. This would be on be driving skills and I’m just trying to poll right now and see if there is interest before I go from there.
 

ColoradoMntMan

Rising Sun Member
Joined
May 8, 2014
Messages
114
Location
Arvada
Does Bill Burke also teach driving skills classes?
 

Mendocino

RS Chapter Eternal
Gone But
Not Forgotten
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
2,466
Location
North Side

jps8460

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
2,911
Location
Broomfield
For discussion purposes, what are some of the things we’d like to glean from such a course? What problem(s) are we trying to solve?

Driver problems: mechanical issues, getting stuck, not properly assessing an obstacle, knowing overall driver limitations, and taking direction.

Usually when we’re out and about at events and the like, here is what I see a lot of and things I struggle with going vehicle to vehicle. I’m as guilty as anyone. No particular order.

1. Not understanding vehicle track width and wheel base. Ie folks don’t know where their tires are and/or don’t know how they move.

2. Lack of “follow through” on big obstacles. They are driving in the now, not the future. The gate keeper on Behind the Rocks is a classic driving in the “now” obstacle. “Begin with the end in mind”

3. Throttle control and overall finesse. As fast as necessary, as slow as possible.

4. Mechanical sympathy, why be harder on the equipment than I need to be. Riding the clutch, steering to much, not going into low range soon enough etc.

5. General lack of mechanical and vehicle knowledge.

6. Poor communication with ones spotter.

7. Knowing what the low hanging vulnerability’s are and where they are located from the drivers seat.

8. Principles of traction. Tires on the ground, differences in turning and going straight on low traction surface etc.

Anyhow, when I think of really good drivers. They are smooth, easy on their equipment, can eye up an obstacle and know if it’s beyond the vehicle or their skill limits, they rarely fly tires way into the air, they don’t needlessly spin tires, they are ok taking a spot, or pulling winch line. Overall, they are extremely boring to watch lol.
 

Inukshuk

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
7,271
Location
Denver, CO
^^ and to me the key for this thread is: "What problem(s) are we trying to solve?"

I think you all know we have some superb drivers and teachers in this club, and Jackson being a I4WDTA probationary trainer :cool: (the org Bill Burke founded) and me still mustering up the skills (and courage) to test again. o_O

I'd teach all this while actually spotting someone on a trail, both easier and harder parts. Indeed, this is one of the most satisfying parts of trail leading.

I'd like to see Jackson teach this!
 

OHUZJ100

Locked
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
284
2. Lack of “follow through” on big obstacles. They are driving in the now, not the future. The gate keeper on Behind the Rocks is a classic driving in the “now” obstacle. “Begin with the end in mind”

3. Throttle control and overall finesse. As fast as necessary, as slow as possible.

4. Mechanical sympathy, why be harder on the equipment than I need to be. Riding the clutch, steering to much, not going into low range soon enough etc.

6. Poor communication with ones spotter.
Personally, I would love focus on these. Learning to work with your spotter, and overall mechanical sympathy in action.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
12,950
Location
Grand Junction
Bill Burke is a great resource but requires a non-trivial time and money investment. Probably best for targeted training like the CM leadership or advanced recovery or at least done with a group of people of similar skill so that both his and your time is best used for effect.

Not that Bill wouldn't be great to use for a newbie boot camp but teaching is IMO kind of a major point of a 4WD club, isn't it? More experienced people passing along basic knowledge and helping others gain experience.

How about instead of formalizing if periodically someone leads a trip that is designed to practice a skill, tire placement, winching, whatever? You'd need someone to run the Rising Sun University to keep track of it I suppose. Sounds like a job for Academic Provost Jackson!
 

jps8460

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
2,911
Location
Broomfield
We cover a lot of those items on the “noobs run.” Bill is excellent at covering these items. In a group setting, he defaults to the lowest common denominator. Like what Dave said, a class like this with Bill would be best with a very small group with very similar experience/skill levels.
 

chaos

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
147
Location
Centennial
I am a bit embarrassed to say some of my problems but I'll chime in as a "noob" to hopefully give some perspective. I've been on several runs with Rising Sun, Cruise Moab and I know a few here on the forum. Before I was allowed out on the trail, my wife insisted I take Bill's beginning driver course. It was at Slaughterhouse Gulch. It took us about 5 hours to go around the entire loop. Here were/are my beginner fears:

1). Lack of vehicle knowledge - I didn't know how to put my LC into 4 Lo. Since the lockers hadn't been worked for a long time, it took some driving on dirt just to get the center diff to lock. So, Bill had to go to each vehicle to make sure everyone knew how to get into 4 Lo. Also, he spoke about the vehicles that had traction control and when/how to use them.
2). Lines to take - Along with understanding vehicle width and wheel base, it was helpful to see what lines Bill took (if you were up close, and he rotated us through to show us) to see where/how he placed his wheels. I've been told to place the tire on the highest point but sometimes it seems like going around the rock (staying on the trail of course) would be better. I was with Travis in Moab and was able to watch him on trails and I had a passenger who was much more experienced help me through the trails. I still don't feel comfortable here.
3) Limits of vehicle - Bill put his vehicle off camber to show us how angled the vehicle can get before it gets close to being dangerous. Where he put his vehicle wasn't even close to typing he said but to a noob, it was downright scary.
4). Etiquette - I didn't know uphill typically had the right of way, but Bill went through that.
5). I had the unfortunate experience of blowing up my plastic radiator at the top of Slaughterhouse. My BIGGEST fear was breaking down. After saying "he has never seen that before", bill showed us how to tow me down, with me stepping on my brake as best as I could and being attached to another vehicle behind so I didn't run away. He then towed me up to the gas station at 285 and I waited for a tow truck. What he told me made me feel much better - this happens and now you know the world doesn't end...
6). Fix a flat tire - the next day, on Bill's training, one of us got a flat tire. It was a skinny Range Rover tire but Bill took the time to show us how to patch the tire, and when that didn't work, how to change it. Some people didn't know where their spare was or where the tools were.
7). Listening to spotters - getting to know the driver/passenger directions wasn't too hard. I was usually petrified during the times I needed spotting so if the spotter told me to pick my nose at that time, I would probably have done it without hesitating.

I know this all seems stupid to y'all, but simple fears like this can be paralyzing to noobs. But, I've been at FJ Summit with bigger noobs behind me and I had to ask them to not follow so closely in case I stopped quickly. They were afraid that they wouldn't know what line to drive so they were just following me.

So, like anything, what is easy and intuitive for experienced people is not so easy and intuitive for others. I can set up a triple nymph fly fishing rod in about 2 minutes. I know people who have spent an hour tying 3 flies on.

I love the idea and I hope this gives you some perspective on what noobs look to learn and feel. I have blessed by the people at Rising Sun who have taken the time to explain various elements of this to me!
 

Inukshuk

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
7,271
Location
Denver, CO
I am a bit embarrassed to say some of my problems but I'll chime in as a "noob" to hopefully give some perspective. I've been on several runs with Rising Sun, Cruise Moab and I know a few here on the forum. Before I was allowed out on the trail, my wife insisted I take Bill's beginning driver course. It was at Slaughterhouse Gulch. It took us about 5 hours to go around the entire loop. Here were/are my beginner fears:

1). Lack of vehicle knowledge - I didn't know how to put my LC into 4 Lo. Since the lockers hadn't been worked for a long time, it took some driving on dirt just to get the center diff to lock. So, Bill had to go to each vehicle to make sure everyone knew how to get into 4 Lo. Also, he spoke about the vehicles that had traction control and when/how to use them.
2). Lines to take - Along with understanding vehicle width and wheel base, it was helpful to see what lines Bill took (if you were up close, and he rotated us through to show us) to see where/how he placed his wheels. I've been told to place the tire on the highest point but sometimes it seems like going around the rock (staying on the trail of course) would be better. I was with Travis in Moab and was able to watch him on trails and I had a passenger who was much more experienced help me through the trails. I still don't feel comfortable here.
3) Limits of vehicle - Bill put his vehicle off camber to show us how angled the vehicle can get before it gets close to being dangerous. Where he put his vehicle wasn't even close to typing he said but to a noob, it was downright scary.
4). Etiquette - I didn't know uphill typically had the right of way, but Bill went through that.
5). I had the unfortunate experience of blowing up my plastic radiator at the top of Slaughterhouse. My BIGGEST fear was breaking down. After saying "he has never seen that before", bill showed us how to tow me down, with me stepping on my brake as best as I could and being attached to another vehicle behind so I didn't run away. He then towed me up to the gas station at 285 and I waited for a tow truck. What he told me made me feel much better - this happens and now you know the world doesn't end...
6). Fix a flat tire - the next day, on Bill's training, one of us got a flat tire. It was a skinny Range Rover tire but Bill took the time to show us how to patch the tire, and when that didn't work, how to change it. Some people didn't know where their spare was or where the tools were.
7). Listening to spotters - getting to know the driver/passenger directions wasn't too hard. I was usually petrified during the times I needed spotting so if the spotter told me to pick my nose at that time, I would probably have done it without hesitating.

I know this all seems stupid to y'all, but simple fears like this can be paralyzing to noobs. But, I've been at FJ Summit with bigger noobs behind me and I had to ask them to not follow so closely in case I stopped quickly. They were afraid that they wouldn't know what line to drive so they were just following me.

So, like anything, what is easy and intuitive for experienced people is not so easy and intuitive for others. I can set up a triple nymph fly fishing rod in about 2 minutes. I know people who have spent an hour tying 3 flies on.

I love the idea and I hope this gives you some perspective on what noobs look to learn and feel. I have blessed by the people at Rising Sun who have taken the time to explain various elements of this to me!
David - Great perspective! Its so easy to forget what we all went through to get to where we are now.
 

DaveInDenver

Rising Sun Ham Guru
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
12,950
Location
Grand Junction
David - Great perspective! Its so easy to forget what we all went through to get to where we are now.
I was a total knob when Jeff Zepp patiently took Kirsten and me up Spinning Wheel trail outside of Idaho Springs for my first "official" run with the club. That first year was a steep learning curve on stuff like Wheeler Lake, Red Cone, Triple Bypass. Thanks to the people willing to show me the ropes I feel like a much more skilled knob now.
 
Last edited:

LandLocked93

Brand New
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
3
New member, first post and just want to say how excited I am to find this forum and this club. I've spent a while base lining my rig (skeert **itless of breakdowns) and running nearby trails to cut my teeth on this new-to-me mountainous terrain. My first trail ride was a gut-wrenching novice affair. Since then I've matured to what I'd call 'restrained amateur'. lol
I've no idea where I stand in terms of skill as solo trailing can only give a self-evaluation. Made it thru some stuff only due to lockers and chose to avoid other stuff because I was solo and had no plan B were things to go south.
I consume as much offroad programming/content as possible to learn anything available.
But there is no substitute for live, on-site tutelage/mentoring.
You have a contributor and attendee in me if this suggestion comes to fruition.(y)
 

3rdGen4R

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,514
Location
Littleton, CO
New member, first post and just want to say how excited I am to find this forum and this club. I've spent a while base lining my rig (skeert **itless of breakdowns) and running nearby trails to cut my teeth on this new-to-me mountainous terrain. My first trail ride was a gut-wrenching novice affair. Since then I've matured to what I'd call 'restrained amateur'. lol
I've no idea where I stand in terms of skill as solo trailing can only give a self-evaluation. Made it thru some stuff only due to lockers and chose to avoid other stuff because I was solo and had no plan B were things to go south.
I consume as much offroad programming/content as possible to learn anything available.
But there is no substitute for live, on-site tutelage/mentoring.
You have a contributor and attendee in me if this suggestion comes to fruition.(y)

Hey Man! There are a ton of opportunities to learn in Rising Sun. Be on the lookout for a Newbs run with @jps8460 as we had a discussion about this last night and it's really for anyone and covers a ton of topics. We are always in the works for doing other types of runs and you are more than welcome to join any of the runs you see listed on the "4wheeling and event staging area." And if you see on that fills up before you have a chance to sign up, feel free to ask to be put on the waiting list as more than likely there is almost always room by the time the run happens. Glad to have you!
 

LandLocked93

Brand New
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
3
Hey Man! There are a ton of opportunities to learn in Rising Sun. Be on the lookout for a Newbs run with @jps8460 as we had a discussion about this last night and it's really for anyone and covers a ton of topics. We are always in the works for doing other types of runs and you are more than welcome to join any of the runs you see listed on the "4wheeling and event staging area." And if you see on that fills up before you have a chance to sign up, feel free to ask to be put on the waiting list as more than likely there is almost always room by the time the run happens. Glad to have you!
Thank you and glad to be here!
I am eyeing the Event Staging and plan to make it to one asap. I'll also have my membership app with me as well. 😉
I wanted to join the zoom call with Mr. Grec. Love his channel and all the valuable tidbits he shares are usually much harder to come by. Great stuff!
Hope to see y'all soon!
 

jps8460

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
2,911
Location
Broomfield
I was a total knob when Jeff Zepp patiently took Kirsten and me up Spinning Wheel trail outside of Idaho Springs for my first "official" run with the club. That first year was a steep learning curve on stuff like Wheeler Lake, Red Cone, Triple Bypass. Thanks to the people willing to show me the ropes I feel like a much more skilled knob now.
Noob Dave, .... Noooooob
 
Top