Red Cone 7-19-25
- Thread starter subzali
- Start date
So how is the skinny spot on Webster this year?
So this was my second run with the 33" Toyo MTs. The other one I've been on is Hackett Gulch. But on Red Cone the change in gearing was much more noticeable because there are many more rocky piles to crawl over as you go up. I'm glad I was on 31s for so many years, because back then they were able to get me all the places I needed to go with minimal loss of performance. But as trails get harder I feel now is the time for 33s. But I had to deal with burnt clutch way more than I ever used to - getting those meats turning when they are jammed up on some rocks is definitely different than what I have been used to. Immediately my dad and I were discussing the merits of an H41 vs. Orion vs. diff gears, or a combination of several or all of those options. Fun discussion to have.
The other comparison I was able to make this day was against my 80 from three years ago. Very interesting differences.
So @HoneyBadger is right, the second set of whoops in the trees is much different than it was 3 years ago. The 80 walked right on through (probably with both lockers on), but I got caught out in the 40 and almost broke a side rear window against a tree root (tapped it on the glass) because I had set up a little too far to the left. But to climb the right side would require my tires to go up a very high straight/undercut wall of earth, so have to be in just the right spot to make it through clean. My dad hopped out and we added some logs and rocks to keep me from leaning into the tree root, and I was able to drive out. Thank you rear locker. I'm thinking the short wheelbase and leaf springs made that spot more difficult than it would be in a coil sprung wagon.
Had a good time going up further, until we caught a group of Jeeps right before the last climb up to Red Cone. These guys, I swear, were going the S L O W E S T I have ever seen anyone drive. Literally idling in first gear. 600-700 rpm. I mean I like seeing the views, but this was excessively slow. And they didn't let me pass before we started the hillclimb. So I had to follow them up, and wait for like 5 minutes for the four of them to get to the top, at idle speed, and reverse, at idle speed, back for their picture with the Red Cone flag. Should have only taken a minute or two. Then when we get up to the top the lead guy saunters over at a snail's pace and tells me how they're just going to take a few pics and then be on their way. We said yeah we're just going to get ahead of you and we took off down the hill. No way were we going to keep following them.
So we get down to the last drop and there is a group of 4 F-150s at Webster Pass. One of them is pointed up the hill right at me, but backing down to Webster. Clearly he/they were trying to hill climb the one-way downhill section, a-holes. Thankfully their street tread tires didn't give them enough traction to get high to do any real damage when they spun out on the loose stuff. They acted like they weren't up to anything and they all backed up their trucks into a line and took Insta poses at Webster Pass. We continued on toward Radical Hill.
When we got across to the Radical Hill climb, we looked back and another one of the F-150s was making a try at the wrong-way hillclimb. Jerk. Finally as we got a little higher the four Jeeps we had passed made their way down the last drop to Webster, still at idle, which essentially ended the F-150s fun and they took off down toward Montezuma. They weren't going to wait for another 15 minutes for the four Jeeps to navigate their way down that last section to Webster. Anyway, as we continued up Radical, there is a rock face with a notch on the right hand side. The 80 struggled here, but eventually got up it with all-terrain tires. We tried two lines on the left with the 40, but just too steep and not enough gearing. We finally took the notch on the right (easiest line), and only barely made it up that after I essentially had to do a clutch dump at the top to get the tires to scrabble for traction. I had them down at around 8 or 10 psi, a little lower than I normally would like but they rode nice, had good traction, and didn't lose a bead, so that's good.
Just above this section there is a rocky creek type section. Here the breakover angle of the 40 vs. the 80 had its advantages, but again there was a lot of clutch work involved with making it happen through here.
Above here was the scariest part of the day. Radical really has some off-camber sections, and a couple where the runoff has created a little ditch that makes the lean even worse. And with these new taller tires I'm not really sure what my limits are. It felt really bad, and I considered turning around but at some point I felt it was better to be going uphill vs. downhill. The 80 didn't feel this bad, even though it's wider. I'm not sure why not. The narrowest part comes where there is a rock on the left hand side. Just below that is the last of the off-camber hillclimbs. Where my 40 vapor locked. Now my 40 is not prone to vapor-locking, but it sure decided to do it in a really uncomfortable spot. Hard on the brakes to keep from going backward, and leaning out toward the edge was not a good place to be. Thankfully there was a snowfield nearby and my dad got out and put snow around the carburetor and fuel pump to help cool things down. After a few minutes we got it started right up and navigated the last 15 feet of climb up to a flat spot where we could rest and calm our nerves. Walked up to make sure there were no other problems facing us, filled in the road a little bit right at the narrowest part where the rock is, and drove right on through and all the way up to the top. Going through that narrow part with the wide 80 was super nerve wracking, because you can't see your outside tire but you know it's on the edge. With the 40 I was more worried because it again tipped you toward the outside right at this spot. But we got past it and all the way up.
At the top of Radical Hill we stopped for another bite to eat, and I hoped to see some mountain goats. No luck today. Two Jeep JLs went past us heading down Radical, and they seemed to just cruise on down. I wanted to go over to SOB Hill and out Georgia Pass, to get a full comparison against what the 80 did three years ago, but it was already taking us way longer than I remembered to get to this point. I think the 80 must have done the trail way faster because it must be smoother. So we took Deer Creek down to Montezuma, which I didn't recognize at all - in 2007 I must have gone over Saints John down to Montezuma. Anyway so we went down there and back up toward Webster. Saw a beaver in one of the ponds - that was really cool. Webster by now, around 5pm, is like a circus with all kinds of people, so we continue on. I always though the top shelf road was the narrow one, but boy was I wrong. @MountainGoat we got down to that lower shelf, and I had to take a deep breath on that one too. Not quite as bad as Radical but still not comfortable, and also with runoff creating a small ditch on the edge which makes it worse. Again it leaves me wondering how a wider vehicle would feel - it seems like it would make it worse, but maybe the wide vehicles feel more stable vs. the FJ40 and maybe it's the narrowness of the FJ40 that made me so nervous to drive those narrow shelf roads?
A little further on my horn decided it wanted to short out so we had to unhook the horns from the wires. Never had that happen before. Also with the 33s at full stuff they got into the fenders and turn signal wires and pulled the wiring apart, so I will need to fix that and secure the wiring more out of the way for the future. I have some other springs to try at some point too that will hopefully give me more clearance for the bigger tires.
So it was a day of (re)learning my FJ40, feeling out some new differences with the larger tires, and comparing with the 80, which I have mostly taken off road the past several years with the kids.
2007:
2025:
The other comparison I was able to make this day was against my 80 from three years ago. Very interesting differences.
So @HoneyBadger is right, the second set of whoops in the trees is much different than it was 3 years ago. The 80 walked right on through (probably with both lockers on), but I got caught out in the 40 and almost broke a side rear window against a tree root (tapped it on the glass) because I had set up a little too far to the left. But to climb the right side would require my tires to go up a very high straight/undercut wall of earth, so have to be in just the right spot to make it through clean. My dad hopped out and we added some logs and rocks to keep me from leaning into the tree root, and I was able to drive out. Thank you rear locker. I'm thinking the short wheelbase and leaf springs made that spot more difficult than it would be in a coil sprung wagon.
Had a good time going up further, until we caught a group of Jeeps right before the last climb up to Red Cone. These guys, I swear, were going the S L O W E S T I have ever seen anyone drive. Literally idling in first gear. 600-700 rpm. I mean I like seeing the views, but this was excessively slow. And they didn't let me pass before we started the hillclimb. So I had to follow them up, and wait for like 5 minutes for the four of them to get to the top, at idle speed, and reverse, at idle speed, back for their picture with the Red Cone flag. Should have only taken a minute or two. Then when we get up to the top the lead guy saunters over at a snail's pace and tells me how they're just going to take a few pics and then be on their way. We said yeah we're just going to get ahead of you and we took off down the hill. No way were we going to keep following them.
So we get down to the last drop and there is a group of 4 F-150s at Webster Pass. One of them is pointed up the hill right at me, but backing down to Webster. Clearly he/they were trying to hill climb the one-way downhill section, a-holes. Thankfully their street tread tires didn't give them enough traction to get high to do any real damage when they spun out on the loose stuff. They acted like they weren't up to anything and they all backed up their trucks into a line and took Insta poses at Webster Pass. We continued on toward Radical Hill.
When we got across to the Radical Hill climb, we looked back and another one of the F-150s was making a try at the wrong-way hillclimb. Jerk. Finally as we got a little higher the four Jeeps we had passed made their way down the last drop to Webster, still at idle, which essentially ended the F-150s fun and they took off down toward Montezuma. They weren't going to wait for another 15 minutes for the four Jeeps to navigate their way down that last section to Webster. Anyway, as we continued up Radical, there is a rock face with a notch on the right hand side. The 80 struggled here, but eventually got up it with all-terrain tires. We tried two lines on the left with the 40, but just too steep and not enough gearing. We finally took the notch on the right (easiest line), and only barely made it up that after I essentially had to do a clutch dump at the top to get the tires to scrabble for traction. I had them down at around 8 or 10 psi, a little lower than I normally would like but they rode nice, had good traction, and didn't lose a bead, so that's good.
Just above this section there is a rocky creek type section. Here the breakover angle of the 40 vs. the 80 had its advantages, but again there was a lot of clutch work involved with making it happen through here.
Above here was the scariest part of the day. Radical really has some off-camber sections, and a couple where the runoff has created a little ditch that makes the lean even worse. And with these new taller tires I'm not really sure what my limits are. It felt really bad, and I considered turning around but at some point I felt it was better to be going uphill vs. downhill. The 80 didn't feel this bad, even though it's wider. I'm not sure why not. The narrowest part comes where there is a rock on the left hand side. Just below that is the last of the off-camber hillclimbs. Where my 40 vapor locked. Now my 40 is not prone to vapor-locking, but it sure decided to do it in a really uncomfortable spot. Hard on the brakes to keep from going backward, and leaning out toward the edge was not a good place to be. Thankfully there was a snowfield nearby and my dad got out and put snow around the carburetor and fuel pump to help cool things down. After a few minutes we got it started right up and navigated the last 15 feet of climb up to a flat spot where we could rest and calm our nerves. Walked up to make sure there were no other problems facing us, filled in the road a little bit right at the narrowest part where the rock is, and drove right on through and all the way up to the top. Going through that narrow part with the wide 80 was super nerve wracking, because you can't see your outside tire but you know it's on the edge. With the 40 I was more worried because it again tipped you toward the outside right at this spot. But we got past it and all the way up.
At the top of Radical Hill we stopped for another bite to eat, and I hoped to see some mountain goats. No luck today. Two Jeep JLs went past us heading down Radical, and they seemed to just cruise on down. I wanted to go over to SOB Hill and out Georgia Pass, to get a full comparison against what the 80 did three years ago, but it was already taking us way longer than I remembered to get to this point. I think the 80 must have done the trail way faster because it must be smoother. So we took Deer Creek down to Montezuma, which I didn't recognize at all - in 2007 I must have gone over Saints John down to Montezuma. Anyway so we went down there and back up toward Webster. Saw a beaver in one of the ponds - that was really cool. Webster by now, around 5pm, is like a circus with all kinds of people, so we continue on. I always though the top shelf road was the narrow one, but boy was I wrong. @MountainGoat we got down to that lower shelf, and I had to take a deep breath on that one too. Not quite as bad as Radical but still not comfortable, and also with runoff creating a small ditch on the edge which makes it worse. Again it leaves me wondering how a wider vehicle would feel - it seems like it would make it worse, but maybe the wide vehicles feel more stable vs. the FJ40 and maybe it's the narrowness of the FJ40 that made me so nervous to drive those narrow shelf roads?
A little further on my horn decided it wanted to short out so we had to unhook the horns from the wires. Never had that happen before. Also with the 33s at full stuff they got into the fenders and turn signal wires and pulled the wiring apart, so I will need to fix that and secure the wiring more out of the way for the future. I have some other springs to try at some point too that will hopefully give me more clearance for the bigger tires.
So it was a day of (re)learning my FJ40, feeling out some new differences with the larger tires, and comparing with the 80, which I have mostly taken off road the past several years with the kids.
2007:
2025:
Sounds like a nerve wracking day, glad you guys made it through fairly unscathed.So this was my second run with the 33" Toyo MTs. The other one I've been on is Hackett Gulch. But on Red Cone the change in gearing was much more noticeable because there are many more rocky piles to crawl over as you go up. I'm glad I was on 31s for so many years, because back then they were able to get me all the places I needed to go with minimal loss of performance. But as trails get harder I feel now is the time for 33s. But I had to deal with burnt clutch way more than I ever used to - getting those meats turning when they are jammed up on some rocks is definitely different than what I have been used to. Immediately my dad and I were discussing the merits of an H41 vs. Orion vs. diff gears, or a combination of several or all of those options. Fun discussion to have.
The other comparison I was able to make this day was against my 80 from three years ago. Very interesting differences.
So @HoneyBadger is right, the second set of whoops in the trees is much different than it was 3 years ago. The 80 walked right on through (probably with both lockers on), but I got caught out in the 40 and almost broke a side rear window against a tree root (tapped it on the glass) because I had set up a little too far to the left. But to climb the right side would require my tires to go up a very high straight/undercut wall of earth, so have to be in just the right spot to make it through clean. My dad hopped out and we added some logs and rocks to keep me from leaning into the tree root, and I was able to drive out. Thank you rear locker. I'm thinking the short wheelbase and leaf springs made that spot more difficult than it would be in a coil sprung wagon.
Had a good time going up further, until we caught a group of Jeeps right before the last climb up to Red Cone. These guys, I swear, were going the S L O W E S T I have ever seen anyone drive. Literally idling in first gear. 600-700 rpm. I mean I like seeing the views, but this was excessively slow. And they didn't let me pass before we started the hillclimb. So I had to follow them up, and wait for like 5 minutes for the four of them to get to the top, at idle speed, and reverse, at idle speed, back for their picture with the Red Cone flag. Should have only taken a minute or two. Then when we get up to the top the lead guy saunters over at a snail's pace and tells me how they're just going to take a few pics and then be on their way. We said yeah we're just going to get ahead of you and we took off down the hill. No way were we going to keep following them.
So we get down to the last drop and there is a group of 4 F-150s at Webster Pass. One of them is pointed up the hill right at me, but backing down to Webster. Clearly he/they were trying to hill climb the one-way downhill section, a-holes. Thankfully their street tread tires didn't give them enough traction to get high to do any real damage when they spun out on the loose stuff. They acted like they weren't up to anything and they all backed up their trucks into a line and took Insta poses at Webster Pass. We continued on toward Radical Hill.
When we got across to the Radical Hill climb, we looked back and another one of the F-150s was making a try at the wrong-way hillclimb. Jerk. Finally as we got a little higher the four Jeeps we had passed made their way down the last drop to Webster, still at idle, which essentially ended the F-150s fun and they took off down toward Montezuma. They weren't going to wait for another 15 minutes for the four Jeeps to navigate their way down that last section to Webster. Anyway, as we continued up Radical, there is a rock face with a notch on the right hand side. The 80 struggled here, but eventually got up it with all-terrain tires. We tried two lines on the left with the 40, but just too steep and not enough gearing. We finally took the notch on the right (easiest line), and only barely made it up that after I essentially had to do a clutch dump at the top to get the tires to scrabble for traction. I had them down at around 8 or 10 psi, a little lower than I normally would like but they rode nice, had good traction, and didn't lose a bead, so that's good.
Just above this section there is a rocky creek type section. Here the breakover angle of the 40 vs. the 80 had its advantages, but again there was a lot of clutch work involved with making it happen through here.
Above here was the scariest part of the day. Radical really has some off-camber sections, and a couple where the runoff has created a little ditch that makes the lean even worse. And with these new taller tires I'm not really sure what my limits are. It felt really bad, and I considered turning around but at some point I felt it was better to be going uphill vs. downhill. The 80 didn't feel this bad, even though it's wider. I'm not sure why not. The narrowest part comes where there is a rock on the left hand side. Just below that is the last of the off-camber hillclimbs. Where my 40 vapor locked. Now my 40 is not prone to vapor-locking, but it sure decided to do it in a really uncomfortable spot. Hard on the brakes to keep from going backward, and leaning out toward the edge was not a good place to be. Thankfully there was a snowfield nearby and my dad got out and put snow around the carburetor and fuel pump to help cool things down. After a few minutes we got it started right up and navigated the last 15 feet of climb up to a flat spot where we could rest and calm our nerves. Walked up to make sure there were no other problems facing us, filled in the road a little bit right at the narrowest part where the rock is, and drove right on through and all the way up to the top. Going through that narrow part with the wide 80 was super nerve wracking, because you can't see your outside tire but you know it's on the edge. With the 40 I was more worried because it again tipped you toward the outside right at this spot. But we got past it and all the way up.
At the top of Radical Hill we stopped for another bite to eat, and I hoped to see some mountain goats. No luck today. Two Jeep JLs went past us heading down Radical, and they seemed to just cruise on down. I wanted to go over to SOB Hill and out Georgia Pass, to get a full comparison against what the 80 did three years ago, but it was already taking us way longer than I remembered to get to this point. I think the 80 must have done the trail way faster because it must be smoother. So we took Deer Creek down to Montezuma, which I didn't recognize at all - in 2007 I must have gone over Saints John down to Montezuma. Anyway so we went down there and back up toward Webster. Saw a beaver in one of the ponds - that was really cool. Webster by now, around 5pm, is like a circus with all kinds of people, so we continue on. I always though the top shelf road was the narrow one, but boy was I wrong. @MountainGoat we got down to that lower shelf, and I had to take a deep breath on that one too. Not quite as bad as Radical but still not comfortable, and also with runoff creating a small ditch on the edge which makes it worse. Again it leaves me wondering how a wider vehicle would feel - it seems like it would make it worse, but maybe the wide vehicles feel more stable vs. the FJ40 and maybe it's the narrowness of the FJ40 that made me so nervous to drive those narrow shelf roads?
A little further on my horn decided it wanted to short out so we had to unhook the horns from the wires. Never had that happen before. Also with the 33s at full stuff they got into the fenders and turn signal wires and pulled the wiring apart, so I will need to fix that and secure the wiring more out of the way for the future. I have some other springs to try at some point too that will hopefully give me more clearance for the bigger tires.
So it was a day of (re)learning my FJ40, feeling out some new differences with the larger tires, and comparing with the 80, which I have mostly taken off road the past several years with the kids.
2007:
2025:
Yeah, I like the trail because it's always exciting, but I might opt out of Radical Hill from here on out.
HoneyBadger
Rising Sun Member
Interesting report. Thanks for sharing, Matt.
I went up webster and radical hill last summer with some work buddies. It was my first time up those two trails in several years, because I tend to avoid those trails due to the narrow nature of the shelf sections. I found them to be surprisingly less sketchy than I had several years ago.
I don't know, weird.
But that washed out off camber spot on Radical Hill is always a clencher for sure. I hate it.
That's where a fella rolled off in his jeep a couple years ago. Flattened his jeep like a pancake. Luckily he wasn't wearing a seatbelt, and he and his dog were both thrown free. He was super messed up. His dog was hurt too, but still ran to get help. (yes, just like in the movies)
Nightmare material for sure.
The older I get, the more I think that stuff isn't worth it.
I went up webster and radical hill last summer with some work buddies. It was my first time up those two trails in several years, because I tend to avoid those trails due to the narrow nature of the shelf sections. I found them to be surprisingly less sketchy than I had several years ago.
I don't know, weird.
But that washed out off camber spot on Radical Hill is always a clencher for sure. I hate it.
That's where a fella rolled off in his jeep a couple years ago. Flattened his jeep like a pancake. Luckily he wasn't wearing a seatbelt, and he and his dog were both thrown free. He was super messed up. His dog was hurt too, but still ran to get help. (yes, just like in the movies)
Nightmare material for sure.
The older I get, the more I think that stuff isn't worth it.
With age comes wisdom.
Colt just posted a video of the same route.
The worst spot I mentioned is at 26:38 in the video.
My FJ40 vapor locked at about 27:30.
The last tight spot is at 28:13.
View: https://youtu.be/1Krw9E9UCoI?si=Z7ek70Nfn2q64GZr
The worst spot I mentioned is at 26:38 in the video.
My FJ40 vapor locked at about 27:30.
The last tight spot is at 28:13.
View: https://youtu.be/1Krw9E9UCoI?si=Z7ek70Nfn2q64GZr
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