rover67
Rising Sun Member
yeah man nice work. Go drive it more. 
Probably a grenaded transfer case
- Thread starter DouglasVB
- Start date
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
So on to the next thing I need to fix... the two hard fuel lines that run up through the trans tunnel area are partially cut through from the whole t-case exploding thing. I think the disk from the e-brake managed to get close enough to nick the lines pretty good. They're not leaking yet but I don't like the looks of it.
I think these are the low pressure return line and the vent line? I'd rather not replace them with hard lines again. I was thinking of either cutting out the bad sections and replacing with rubber line or removing those hard lines entirely and replacing with rubber line.
The circled red lines are the ones I'm talking about and the yellow mark is where the damage is.
Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this?
Also I'm coming back around to thinking about the e-brake situation. I'm kinda thinking of saying "f*** it" and reinstall the drive line e-brake. I'll need new caliper pads because the old ones got destroyed. It looks like these are the pads I need: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162375857875 Does that look right? I have a Sky Offroad model.
If I do put the driveline e-brake back on, then I definitely need to reroute those hard lines so they don't get screwed up again. The clearance is really bad there with the disk for the e-brake installed.
I think these are the low pressure return line and the vent line? I'd rather not replace them with hard lines again. I was thinking of either cutting out the bad sections and replacing with rubber line or removing those hard lines entirely and replacing with rubber line.
The circled red lines are the ones I'm talking about and the yellow mark is where the damage is.
Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this?
Also I'm coming back around to thinking about the e-brake situation. I'm kinda thinking of saying "f*** it" and reinstall the drive line e-brake. I'll need new caliper pads because the old ones got destroyed. It looks like these are the pads I need: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162375857875 Does that look right? I have a Sky Offroad model.
If I do put the driveline e-brake back on, then I definitely need to reroute those hard lines so they don't get screwed up again. The clearance is really bad there with the disk for the e-brake installed.
J Kimmel
Hard Core 4+
My lines are an barb fittings at the tank with efi hose there and back. I have them clamped to the factory hard line by the engine. No issues for years.
if you cut the lines put a flare in there to clamp over otherwise hot for it. Running new hard line is easy too, buy bulk and gently bend with your hand to fit where you want it, or buy a cheap line bender if you’re concerned
if you cut the lines put a flare in there to clamp over otherwise hot for it. Running new hard line is easy too, buy bulk and gently bend with your hand to fit where you want it, or buy a cheap line bender if you’re concerned
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
The latest truck drama...
I took the truck to the local shop that I have used in the past to have the fuel line work done and also do some brake line work back in September. My work has been so crazy that I haven't had the energy to do my own work on just about anything.
I just got the truck back today. They fit it in where they could over the last few months and it took a long time to get parts for a few things. As part of the work, they also tracked down why it wasn't starting very well (issues with the cold start injector wiring). As part of that work they found some not great news.
They found that the timing chain jumped a tooth and they believe the timing guides are damaged or already destroyed. The timing chain hasn’t started eating into the engine wall yet but eventually it will. It’s a matter of time.
They said instead of replacing the timing chain and guides they’d recommend putting in a new motor because they think it’ll be cheaper in the long run. They use Jasper engines which I haven’t heard the best things about in the past but maybe they’re better now? They figured ballpark it’ll be $5-7k to do the engine swap including the engine and the labor although they didn’t look up engine prices. They said it could go up if they get into it and find more issues with everything else in the engine bay.
They did repair the cold start injector wiring so now it starts like a champ. And the fuel lines and rear brake lines have been redone. And there’s a new AMG battery in it and some fresh battery cables.
I’m looking around online to see prices for 22RE motors and LCE is at $4.3k before tax and shipping for their base motor. 22RE Performance isn’t taking new rebuild orders at this point. I’m not really sure who else is out there anymore doing a decent job of a 22RE engine. I suppose there are always junk yards where I could pull an engine and hope the roll of the dice works in my favor. It looks like the local pick n pull charges about $250 for complete engines.
Master rebuild kits look like they’re running around $650-1k-ish. The issue remains the same for me where I don’t have much of a space to do work that requires the truck to be taken apart. My friend’s driveway is possible but really not ideal. Anyway I owe her putting the engine back in her classic mustang from using the driveway to repair the t-cases.
Just the timing chain kit is about $160. If I wanted to upgrade to dual row timing chain and metal chain guides that will never need repair, that’s about $450 and also includes a new oil pump, water pump, and timing cover.
One issue with the current engine is one of the mounts from the engine block for the power steering pump is fractured. I think maybe it could be fixed if it were welded but it's been a long term concern of mine.
Also now for whatever reason the rear window refuses to work. So I’ll need to dig around in the electrical system to see what happened. Probably it’s corrosion.
I’m not in a big hurry right now to do anything. Our living situation is getting unstable and we may have to buy a house in the first half of next year so I’m not looking to drop a bunch of money if I don’t have to. My daily driver is on its last legs as well which adds to the headache.
I took the truck to the local shop that I have used in the past to have the fuel line work done and also do some brake line work back in September. My work has been so crazy that I haven't had the energy to do my own work on just about anything.
I just got the truck back today. They fit it in where they could over the last few months and it took a long time to get parts for a few things. As part of the work, they also tracked down why it wasn't starting very well (issues with the cold start injector wiring). As part of that work they found some not great news.
They found that the timing chain jumped a tooth and they believe the timing guides are damaged or already destroyed. The timing chain hasn’t started eating into the engine wall yet but eventually it will. It’s a matter of time.
They said instead of replacing the timing chain and guides they’d recommend putting in a new motor because they think it’ll be cheaper in the long run. They use Jasper engines which I haven’t heard the best things about in the past but maybe they’re better now? They figured ballpark it’ll be $5-7k to do the engine swap including the engine and the labor although they didn’t look up engine prices. They said it could go up if they get into it and find more issues with everything else in the engine bay.
They did repair the cold start injector wiring so now it starts like a champ. And the fuel lines and rear brake lines have been redone. And there’s a new AMG battery in it and some fresh battery cables.
I’m looking around online to see prices for 22RE motors and LCE is at $4.3k before tax and shipping for their base motor. 22RE Performance isn’t taking new rebuild orders at this point. I’m not really sure who else is out there anymore doing a decent job of a 22RE engine. I suppose there are always junk yards where I could pull an engine and hope the roll of the dice works in my favor. It looks like the local pick n pull charges about $250 for complete engines.
Master rebuild kits look like they’re running around $650-1k-ish. The issue remains the same for me where I don’t have much of a space to do work that requires the truck to be taken apart. My friend’s driveway is possible but really not ideal. Anyway I owe her putting the engine back in her classic mustang from using the driveway to repair the t-cases.
Just the timing chain kit is about $160. If I wanted to upgrade to dual row timing chain and metal chain guides that will never need repair, that’s about $450 and also includes a new oil pump, water pump, and timing cover.
One issue with the current engine is one of the mounts from the engine block for the power steering pump is fractured. I think maybe it could be fixed if it were welded but it's been a long term concern of mine.
Also now for whatever reason the rear window refuses to work. So I’ll need to dig around in the electrical system to see what happened. Probably it’s corrosion.
I’m not in a big hurry right now to do anything. Our living situation is getting unstable and we may have to buy a house in the first half of next year so I’m not looking to drop a bunch of money if I don’t have to. My daily driver is on its last legs as well which adds to the headache.
J Kimmel
Hard Core 4+
If the timing chain isn’t eating through the engine then just put a new timing kit in and move on. It’s a 35 year old vehicle. I wouldn’t spend the money for a completely new engine unless you’re trying for a meticulous restoration or itching to spend money
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
Yeah that's what I'm leaning toward. But with all the problems I've had, it makes me wonder if there are any other ticking time bombs waiting to go off.
rover67
Rising Sun Member
I'd echo Jeremey and throw a timing kit in it and be done. That's just me.
yeah, do the chain and guides. call it a day
SET IT ON FIRE, BUY AN 80. There’s a nice one for sale in your neck of the hoods for 2X of what you’re about to put in your truck. I think that rig was just a bad seed.
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
I both want to see the link to that 80 and also don't want to see the link to that 80 because then I might end up with an 80
I'm leaning toward putting a timing chain into it myself.
Lesson learned: don't buy a 💩📦 from Townsend
For Sale - Sold - 1997 LX450 - Bend OR
Finally decided to sell. Again. For the 3rd time. Each time couldn't bring myself to do it. Just no more time to use/wrench with small kiddo and crazy work. Located in Bend, OR so really just posting here on the off-chance someone has contacts in Bend that may be interested. Craigslist add...
risingsun4x4club.org
At the same time, it is a 30+ year old truck.I both want to see the link to that 80 and also don't want to see the link to that 80 because then I might end up with an 80
I'm leaning toward putting a timing chain into it myself.
Lesson learned: don't buy a 💩📦 from Townsend
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
Wow! That looks pretty solid overall.For Sale - Sold - 1997 LX450 - Bend OR
Finally decided to sell. Again. For the 3rd time. Each time couldn't bring myself to do it. Just no more time to use/wrench with small kiddo and crazy work. Located in Bend, OR so really just posting here on the off-chance someone has contacts in Bend that may be interested. Craigslist add...
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
I put in an order with Yota Shop out of Washington state for a standard timing chain kit and an oil pump seal. About $100 shipped. Figured I’ll gamble that’s all I need and then if I need more I can always order more. (Thanks Bill T. for talking me through everything!!!)
So as long as it stops being stormy in about a week here in Monterey (once the parts arrive), I’ll be tearing into my engine to fix things.
I just wonder how long it’s had a skipped tooth on the timing chain. The engine has run like 💩 for a few years but I’ve always been able to get it to pass smog. Would be pretty awesome if I get some performance back from this work.
So as long as it stops being stormy in about a week here in Monterey (once the parts arrive), I’ll be tearing into my engine to fix things.
I just wonder how long it’s had a skipped tooth on the timing chain. The engine has run like 💩 for a few years but I’ve always been able to get it to pass smog. Would be pretty awesome if I get some performance back from this work.
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
I moved the truck from my work's long-term parking to my friend's driveway in anticipation of parts arriving. The good news is the repaired cold start injector works like an absolute champ. Started up immediately after sitting for two weeks. It's like starting a new car now!
The less good news is it's so insanely anemic that I had trouble getting it up a steep hill to my friend's house. That, I assume, is because it's skipped a tooth and the shop changed timing to match the skipped tooth. So the compression is low across all cylinders. It also ran rough which I think is to be expected?
The not great news is there was quite a bit of water in the passenger footwell from recent rains. The drivers footwell was dry. The rear seat footwell carpet was a bit damp but no standing water. Couldn't figure out where the water came from. There wasn't any sign of water farther up on the truck. Didn't see any evidence of it coming from behind the dash (but I didn't pull anything to check deeper) or from the hard top gasket. So that's a bit of a mystery. In the past I had trouble with a little water coming in at times and I've never successfully figured out where it's coming from. I'll go back over today with towels to suck up the water and then will see about pulling the carpet out to let it dry.
Hopefully throwing a timing chain at it is going to solve a lot of problems.
I need to remember to go through the wiring for the rear window to figure out why it quit. Probably corrosion somewhere.
It looks like I'll do the timing chain on my truck before we put the engine back in my friend's classic Mustang. Her uncle rebuilt the engine for her at the start of the pandemic and wanted to help reinstall it but he lives back east and has had medical problems the last year so I don't think he'll be coming out in January to help. We're discussing if he'd feel well enough to participate via Zoom while we drop the engine into her car and have him remotely supervise the break-in process.
The less good news is it's so insanely anemic that I had trouble getting it up a steep hill to my friend's house. That, I assume, is because it's skipped a tooth and the shop changed timing to match the skipped tooth. So the compression is low across all cylinders. It also ran rough which I think is to be expected?
The not great news is there was quite a bit of water in the passenger footwell from recent rains. The drivers footwell was dry. The rear seat footwell carpet was a bit damp but no standing water. Couldn't figure out where the water came from. There wasn't any sign of water farther up on the truck. Didn't see any evidence of it coming from behind the dash (but I didn't pull anything to check deeper) or from the hard top gasket. So that's a bit of a mystery. In the past I had trouble with a little water coming in at times and I've never successfully figured out where it's coming from. I'll go back over today with towels to suck up the water and then will see about pulling the carpet out to let it dry.
Hopefully throwing a timing chain at it is going to solve a lot of problems.
I need to remember to go through the wiring for the rear window to figure out why it quit. Probably corrosion somewhere.
It looks like I'll do the timing chain on my truck before we put the engine back in my friend's classic Mustang. Her uncle rebuilt the engine for her at the start of the pandemic and wanted to help reinstall it but he lives back east and has had medical problems the last year so I don't think he'll be coming out in January to help. We're discussing if he'd feel well enough to participate via Zoom while we drop the engine into her car and have him remotely supervise the break-in process.
DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
Does this look like everything I'll need? Well... other than some form in place gasket stuff for the oil pan.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
Converting to metal backed guide and never needing attention again is bull. My conversion only lasted 50k.
Stick with the way Toyota did it and most important is to use OEM parts. Only accept OSK aftermarket. Especially the tensioner. Only hand finished by a Japanese artisanal machinist using Sakichi Toyoda's personal tools straight from Toyota or OSK.
I will say that if you tear into it and find the chain has been rubbing railroad tracks into the timing chain cover then all bets are off. That's probably why the shop told you what they did. If the chain has jumped a tooth then your tensioner and/or guides are probably broken and it doesn't take long for the chain to wear through the cover.
If that's happened then oil and coolant have been mixing. Bad, bad, bad.
Should that be the case and you can salvage it (e.g. you haven't ruined the bottom end with coolant diluted oil) then converting to the 79-83 two-row 20R timing chain, guides and cover is an option. I'd consider that. You'll also have to convert stuff on the front of the crank, balancer, etc. I think.
But only if it can be saved and you need a new cover. If your timing cover now is still good then stick with a single row chain and use the factory nylon guides. They're fine, mostly Internet hype about being unreliable. It's the aftermarket junk guides that break and cheap tensioners with soft surfaces (it's supposed to be a hard chrome) on the piston shaft that fail early.
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DouglasVB
Rising Sun Member
That's pretty gnarly, Dave! What did you do to those poor guides?! 😂
For what it's worth, the shop said that it was not rubbing on the timing cover based on sound and that it was safe to drive around town until I heard a change in engine noise. They didn't pull the valve cover to inspect and I don't think they looked at the oil in the pan. We'll see when I drop the pan and pull the timing cover what's going on. Maybe 3k miles ago I had the timing cover off and looked down the timing chain, and the guides looked intact. There was no plastic chunks or coolant mixed in with the oil when I changed it about 2k miles ago. So assuming the guides have broken, they haven't been broken for very long.
I ended up with the OSK timing kit. Single chain plastic guides. Including an engine oil pump o-ring and shipping, it worked out to $102.47 from Yota Shop.
I think I need to swing by the local auto parts store to get a coolant pump gasket. That's the one thing I don't have. Need to go there anyway to get some FIPG and ultra grey silicone plus oil and coolant. I'm planning to reuse the gaskets on the timing cover -- those were all replaced maybe 10k miles ago.
Planning to follow Roger Brown's directions: https://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/EngineMods/TimingChain.shtml and the Toyota FSM.
And for my later reference, it looks like this video has some good info:
Now we'll see if this is the weekend to do this or if I need to wait until next weekend.
For what it's worth, the shop said that it was not rubbing on the timing cover based on sound and that it was safe to drive around town until I heard a change in engine noise. They didn't pull the valve cover to inspect and I don't think they looked at the oil in the pan. We'll see when I drop the pan and pull the timing cover what's going on. Maybe 3k miles ago I had the timing cover off and looked down the timing chain, and the guides looked intact. There was no plastic chunks or coolant mixed in with the oil when I changed it about 2k miles ago. So assuming the guides have broken, they haven't been broken for very long.
I ended up with the OSK timing kit. Single chain plastic guides. Including an engine oil pump o-ring and shipping, it worked out to $102.47 from Yota Shop.
I think I need to swing by the local auto parts store to get a coolant pump gasket. That's the one thing I don't have. Need to go there anyway to get some FIPG and ultra grey silicone plus oil and coolant. I'm planning to reuse the gaskets on the timing cover -- those were all replaced maybe 10k miles ago.
Planning to follow Roger Brown's directions: https://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/EngineMods/TimingChain.shtml and the Toyota FSM.
And for my later reference, it looks like this video has some good info:
Now we'll see if this is the weekend to do this or if I need to wait until next weekend.
DaveInDenver
Rising Sun Ham Guru
It was literally a "I was just driving along" situation. Stopped at a red light, loud clunk, engine died and dash board lit up. It was mid winter and I'd just pulled off the highway after driving back home from skiing solo.
My suspicion is with the warm engine and idle oil pressure the chain pressure wiggled and finally broke off the guide. It was obviously fatigued for a while and thinking back on it there's a lot of unsupported length above that top guide bolt that was just flexing.
These particular guides were double row guides that had been milled down to be single row wide. So it was a compromised design. Toyota originally spec'd the guide material thickness expecting them to be twice as wide. That's why I suggest sticking with the way they did it for single row. The guides are designed to be that width.
So my truck held it together long enough to get me within two blocks of home rather than stranding me. Drove it home to the garage using the starter.
One thing I also determined with certainty is that no matter what the Interwebz say a 1991 22R-E is definitely an interference engine.
My mistake seems mostly using a poor quality tensioner and probably making the drivers side guide too tight (you can see the wear in it). I had no idea, live and learn.
BTW, if you can reasonably do so pulling off the pan is better. I originally just removed the front bolts and bent the lip enough to get out the cover. It always had a slight weep from the corner where the new FIPG met the original pan seal. I eventually just bit the bullet and dropped the pan to reseal it. Ironically that was only about a year before the chain broke and everything seemed OK then.
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