Ioniq 5

[Lastresort576]

Going back a few posts, I think the hesitation by many to only have a 300mile range, is sure it has that amount brand new and the more fun you have driving it, the range quickly depletes...But what about after a few years? like we have all experienced with cell phones, the capability to hold the charge for lets say that 300 miles is now reduced to 200 miles...and so on. People are interested in investing into EV's but at already a high price, why would you when before you break even youre already having to replace a major part of the vehicle. And when major parts need replacing, it rarely happens at a good financial time.

I agree with tim about his civic getting great gas mileage and the engineering to continue those numbers has seemed to disapear. Something ive questioned for years. But cars are heavier now than the 2,000# 91 civic. Modern cars also have a lot more power than that civic did. It had something around 106hp at the crank. So im sure that plays into it a good bit.

 

[DouglasVB]

Going back a few posts, I think the hesitation by many to only have a 300mile range, is sure it has that amount brand new and the more fun you have driving it, the range quickly depletes...But what about after a few years? like we have all experienced with cell phones, the capability to hold the charge for lets say that 300 miles is now reduced to 200 miles...and so on. People are interested in investing into EV's but at already a high price, why would you when before you break even youre already having to replace a major part of the vehicle. And when major parts need replacing, it rarely happens at a good financial time.

I agree with tim about his civic getting great gas mileage and the engineering to continue those numbers has seemed to disapear. Something ive questioned for years. But cars are heavier now than the 2,000# 91 civic. Modern cars also have a lot more power than that civic did. It had something around 106hp at the crank. So im sure that plays into it a good bit.

Looks like how much the battery degrades depends on a bunch of factors. https://www.autoweek.com/news/a39713122/predicting-how-much-range-ev-batteries-lose-over-time/

That article makes it seem like about 10% degradation at 100k miles can be expected.

 

[Lastresort576]

Looks like how much the battery degrades depends on a bunch of factors. https://www.autoweek.com/news/a39713122/predicting-how-much-range-ev-batteries-lose-over-time/

That article makes it seem like about 10% degradation at 100k miles can be expected.

Thanks for that article. But that proves my point. Its going to cost that guy $20k to replace the battery and probably have to pay an additional amount out of pocket to recycle that battery on his 200k mile vehicle. Both EV and ICE vehicles are essentially the same besides the powerplant so not taking suspension etc needing to be replaced youre left with comparing the powerplants. Maintaining an ICE is a lot easier for the masses vs. coming up with a large amount of money all at once. At 200k miles the biggest thing expense wise that an ICE is going to need or has potential to need is a timing chain. Which is still a part that can be replaced in ones driveway for a few hundred dollars..(I feel like most cars are using chains now and not belts. belts even easier to replace just more frequent, but cheaper part)...

idk I just dont see it. at least not yet.

 

[DouglasVB]

It's not like that guy's car doesn't work anymore. He just can't drive as far to recharge. So it would be great for high school kids learning to drive around town or a grandma who goes to the grocery store, church, and some local appointments.

That's exactly what happened to my old Ford Taurus a number of years back when it hit 200k. It was having brake issues, the wheel bearings were starting to go, and the engine was going to need to be replaced if it was to do too many more thousands of miles. So I sold it to a grandma who wanted to use it in town only.

My current Ford focus is at 250k miles and I should have put it out of its misery long ago. It's on its very last legs without significant investment that just isn't worth it.

The article had more info on other people and their battery experiences including some ultra high mile folks. It seems like it's all about how the car is driven and charged. Not too dissimilar from a gas car.

I guess if people aren't good about saving money over time for major repairs, it's better if they pay for many smaller things over the years versus a big expense at 100k miles or whatever. Prices on all this stuff will come down greatly in the years ahead. I already know a couple guys who have worked on their own battery packs to do repairs and saved a ton of money. That'll probably become more common.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few years.

 

[Jack Bo]

That's exactly what happened to my old Ford Taurus a number of years back when it hit 200k. It was having brake issues, the wheel bearings were starting to go, and the engine was going to need to be replaced if it was to do too many more thousands of miles. So I sold it to a grandma who wanted to use it in town only.

My current Ford focus is at 250k miles and I should have put it out of its misery long ago. It's on its very last legs without significant investment that just isn't worth it.

Selling your old Ford Taurus to a grandma who only needed it for town use was a good decision that allowed the vehicle to continue to be useful and avoided any safety concerns. As for your current Ford Focus with 250k miles, it can be hard to say goodbye to a vehicle that has served you well, but ultimately, safety should be the top priority. If the cost of repairing the vehicle outweighs its value, it may be time to consider retiring it and investing in a new vehicle.

 

[DouglasVB]

In case anyone is interested in getting a Hyundai Ioniq5, now might be the time. Our local dealer (Seaside, California) is selling them for about $43k for the AWD version which is about $10k off MSRP. They've got 40 or so on their lot right now. And Hyundai is offering 0.99% APY financing. And Hyundai is offering two years of free charging on the Electrify America charging network. I've heard from friends further south of us in California that their dealer is doing the same thing (they just bought one).

My guess is the initial popularity of the Ioniq5 caused Hyundai to over-produce them and now they've got a glut.

We test drove one again yesterday and my wife REALLY liked it. We're considering picking one up although for my use case, it probably doesn't work ou to be cheaper than the alternative we're looking at (a late model Subaru Crosstrek with the manual transmission) over five years. I don't drive enough on a daily basis for it to pencil out.

 

[ScaldedDog]

@DouglasVB, isn't electricity in CA more expensive than gas? A guy in the Bay Area from a hybrid forum I frequent did the math, and it makes no sense for him to plug in his hybrid. Might explain why EVs are sitting on lots.

Mark

 

[IoN6]

I love the car but it’s just a disposable daily driver for me.

Pretty sure all vehicles made today are just Bic Lighters.

 

[DouglasVB]

@DouglasVB, isn't electricity in CA more expensive than gas? A guy in the Bay Area from a hybrid forum I frequent did the math, and it makes no sense for him to plug in his hybrid. Might explain why EVs are sitting on lots.

Mark

I think it really depends on when/where you charge.

I'm currently paying $0.53/kWh for peak power pricing or $0.45/kWh for non-peak at home. Our landlords are supposed to install some solar panels soon which will make charging at home nearly free if done during daylight hours (that's reasonable for me because I work a hybrid schedule). Outside of the summer, the peak rate is more like $0.43/kWh and non-peak is around $0.31/kWh.

Hyundai is giving two years of charging for free on the Electrify America network. The closest one of those to me is about two miles away at a Safeway we sometimes shop at.

If I'm heading to my parents (the place I travel the most outside of my immediate area), there's a convenient Love's Travel Stop with Level 3 charging for $0.55/kWh.

There are some charging points I've seen on plugshare.com (an aggregator for charging locations, costs, and if they are working or not) that are more expensive with an up-front charge plus higher per kWh charge. But it seems if you plan things for a trip before you go, you can find reasonably priced charging stations or find free charging via Electrify America (assuming you've got the two years free deal).

EPA rates the Ioniq5 at 2.9 miles/kWh for the AWD. So let's round down to 2.5 miles/kWh because no doubt I'll drive like a jerk and use the Love's Travel Stop charging cost. That I think works out to about $0.22/mile.

On the gas side, I'm looking at a Crosstrek. It gets 22 mpg city / 29 mpg highway for the manual transmission. Yesterday we filled up at the local Costco gas station (usually the cheapest around) and regular was $5.09/gal. Let's take the optimistic 29 mpg highway which then gives us $0.17/mile.

So in a worst case scenario for the Ioniq5, you're looking at $0.22/mile
In a best case scenario for the Crosstrek, you're looking at $0.17/mile

But that assumes you're not getting free charging from the Electrify America network or from home solar panels, you're paying a high price for the power, and you're launching the Ioniq5 at every chance you get (btw, it is WORTH IT to go test drive a few EVs and see what maximum acceleration feels like 🤩).

Supposedly there's a lower total cost of ownership on EVs like the Ioniq5. No regular oil changes, major repairs to the engine, etc. The warranty is quite good with a 10 year, 100k mile powertrain warranty on their EVs. But I don't know if the online calculators that give that info are at all accurate. For instance, this KBB page shows that a Tesla Model 3 is cheaper to own than other luxury cars. This DOE calculator seems to be halfway decent although some of the assumptions (electricity price) are opaque. The PG&E (our local utility) calculator only compares against generally similar vehicles versus specific ones but it says after 4 years, the Ioniq5 is a lower total cost of ownership (of course I'm sure PG&E is wanting to sell more electricity)

If we ignore purchase price (I can get a 2-5 year old Crosstrek for $23-30k versus $43k for a brand new Ioniq5) and maintenance costs, then it seems like a wash or maybe the Ioniq5 comes out ahead if I'm charging for free more often than charging on the grid from home or from a $$$ charging point.

So I don't think it's necessarily the cost to charge that is a determining factor in all these cars sitting on the lot. It might be more a reflection of all the temporarily embarrassed tech bros (all the tech bros out of work over the summer) and all of the early adopters already own EVs at this point.

 

[ScaldedDog]

Got it. The guy I was referencing has a hybrid, which are a little less efficient than a full EV. At (an unconscionable, IMHO) $0.55/KwH, the cost per mile for him was greater than gasoline. By way of comparison, I pay something like $0.14kWh as a CORE customer here in CO. They have some sort of punitive plan for peak usage, but I pay no attention to it, as it only moves the needle $0.01kWh.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the word "free" in any economic context, and certainly not with respect to electricity. It's coming from someone's hide, whether customers, shareholders or taxpayers.

Mark

 

[gungriffin]

Holy crap!!!! 55 cents per KwH!?!?! I thought Puerto Rico was spendy at 28 cents in 2021...

Depending on how hard permits are to obtain, you can easily source the materials needed for a 6-7 Kw solar array for 10-12 grand. That will zero out the average usage of a smallish house. It would likely pay for itself in only perhaps as little as 1.5 years.

On an on topic note, does anyone know if the Ioniq 5 qualifies for federal or state rebates?

 

[AlpineAccess]

Wow, solar seems like it would really make a lot of sense if paired with one of these vehicles.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Supposedly there's a lower total cost of ownership on EVs like the Ioniq5. No regular oil changes, major repairs to the engine, etc. The warranty is quite good with a 10 year, 100k mile powertrain warranty on their EVs. But I don't know if the online calculators that give that info are at all accurate. For instance, this KBB page shows that a Tesla Model 3 is cheaper to own than other luxury cars. This DOE calculator seems to be halfway decent although some of the assumptions (electricity price) are opaque. The PG&E (our local utility) calculator only compares against generally similar vehicles versus specific ones but it says after 4 years, the Ioniq5 is a lower total cost of ownership (of course I'm sure PG&E is wanting to sell more electricity)

If we ignore purchase price (I can get a 2-5 year old Crosstrek for $23-30k versus $43k for a brand new Ioniq5) and maintenance costs, then it seems like a wash or maybe the Ioniq5 comes out ahead if I'm charging for free more often than charging on the grid from home or from a $$$ charging point.

I also think these cost of ownership calculators have a couple of details that now a few years in to EV adoptiong are starting to have market effect.

A used Subaru is going to have the same power and performance as the day it was built and at 100k the owner is not faced with a very large cost of battery replacement.

Now a Subaru is perhaps not the ideal gasoline car to compare since those of us who do own them know there is some headgasket failure gotchas so you do have a higher-than-average chance you will need to do that on an older one.

But that's kind of a statistical grey area and generally you can say that most gasoline cars built recently run well with only schedule maintenance for a very long time and the HP and driving range you got on tank one is the same as tank 100.

Not to mention that when it was just southern CA people buying EVs the effect of weather wasn't as obvious. When cold weather markets started getting them the reduction in range when you have to use the battery and cabin heaters is harder to gloss over.

 

[gungriffin]

I also think these cost of ownership calculators have a couple of details that now a few years in to EV adoptiong are starting to have market effect.

A used Subaru is going to have the same power and performance as the day it was built and at 100k the owner is not faced with a very large cost of battery replacement.

Now a Subaru is perhaps not the ideal gasoline car to compare since those of us who do own them know there is some headgasket failure gotchas so you do have a higher-than-average chance you will need to do that on an older one.

But that's kind of a statistical grey area and generally you can say that most gasoline cars built recently run well with only schedule maintenance for a very long time and the HP and driving range you got on tank one is the same as tank 100.

Not to mention that when it was just southern CA people buying EVs the effect of weather wasn't as obvious. When cold weather markets started getting them the reduction in range when you have to use the battery and cabin heaters is harder to gloss over.

As I understand it from @J1000, the biggest issue with these battery packs is calendar aging. Cycle count doesn't really matter much. Tesla believes that the batteries selling in their current vehicles should be good for a million miles. I could believe that.

One item that is changing with EVs is the availability of reconditioned parts. Much of the time, the entire battery doesn't go bad. It is one cell in the (somewhat) modular design that needs to be swapped. At the moment, it is possible to get a reconditioned battery pack for a Tesla for less than 10k. That price will probably continue to drop.

I do agree that the current EVs will likely depreciate more heavily due to how quickly we are seeing advances in the components. Depreciation is usually the #1 expense of any vehicle purchase making the rest of the costs not really matter.

The item that really sucks is the number of manufacturers who don't use heat pumps for cabin heating. That does really kill mileage if the vehicle utilizes resistance heating elements.

 

[gungriffin]

Wow, solar seems like it would really make a lot of sense if paired with one of these vehicles.

I am working on my permits for solar at the moment. It is a no brainer these days. This is doubly true if the end user is willing to do self install. Most homeowners will see an increase in the value of their home of about $17.50 for every $1 reduction in the annual utility bill. The system should cost me somewhere around $13,500 after the tax deduction, but will increase my home value by approximately $40,000-$50,000. This is in addition to not having a utility bill the entire time I remain in the home.

 

[DaveInDenver]

As I understand it from @J1000, the biggest issue with these battery packs is calendar aging. Cycle count doesn't really matter much. Tesla believes that the batteries selling in their current vehicles should be good for a million miles. I could believe that.

That defies the laws of chemistry and physics with current types. It's typically the opposite. The calendar age is of little consequence, it's cycle count that is key. As well as environmental issues. Heat is tough on all batteries and with lithium cold temperature is a tricky balance to make it convenient for the user.

BU-808b: What Causes Li-ion to Die?

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

Elon tends to exaggerate and bear in mind he never defined what exactly "good" means. It will not be 100% at a million miles but it may also not be completely dead. So "good" may just mean the car will take a charge and be able to make it around the block still.

So look at where his money meets the sales speel. They warranty their packs to have 70% capacity at 8 years or 100/120/150,000 miles (depends on model). Based on that the pack is probably still serviceable at 10 years to some extent.

EV charge handling is amongst the most advanced algorithms and have good heating and cooling systems, so the aging is relatively slow compared to the abuse taken by a phone or laptop. And Tesla does benefit from what they've learned at SpaceX and from aerospace generally.

My point is in comparison a 10 year old whatever Toyota gasoline will be no different at all. Which is good because both of my used Toyotas didn't come to me until they had passed Tesla's benchmarks and I expect them to go at least another 10 years and 100k before I put in major repairs.

Now sure, a lot of new cars of all kinds are made to be disposable so everything's getting cheaper and the days of having a 300k, 20 year old beater that you put pocket change into keeping running are probably over regardless of power type.

 

[DouglasVB]

Holy crap!!!! 55 cents per KwH!?!?! I thought Puerto Rico was spendy at 28 cents in 2021...

We definitely pay a lot for power here. My bill last month (combined electricity and gas -- we have a gas hot water heater and we used a little snorkel-style (two snorkels) AC unit in our bedroom a few nights) was $275.42. We have a 3/2 house with a washer/dryer and dishwasher. We did not use heat last month. We did not charge an electric car or anything else like that. Just two people in a house.

There's an interesting structure in much of California where there can be local or regional government organizations that buy wholesale electrical power and sell it to consumers, and then it is transmitted to consumers via the traditional utility infrastructure. We are saving around 10%/month on our electrical bill because of this arrangement by buying power from these folks https://3cenergy.org/ versus Pacific Gas and Electric who we pay to deliver the power. Ironically I was on the phone this morning with 3C Energy for a work thing.

The PG&E rate structure is pretty wonky from a bunch of different weird public utility commission decisions over the years. The cost to deliver the power still reflects that even though the power is purchased through 3C Energy.

Hopefully our landlord gets around to putting the solar panels on our roof that they've already raised the rent for. We'll at least get some relief from that. They already installed an electric vehicle charger on the house.

Anyway as much as I LOVE driving an Ioniq5, I'm still on the fence if that's what I'm getting or if I'll spend my pennies on a newer Tacoma instead. I can tell you that sitting in an Ioniq5 feels like the future while a 3rd gen Tacoma feels like the recent past.