APRS for Beginners (was Yaesu FT-1XDR)

[PabloCruise]

I am slowly learning a little more about HAM radio capabilities. I still think APRS sounds really cool and I just figured out the FT-1 didn't need an external GPS b/c it had GPS internal.

Now of course the FT-1 is discontinued. Does anyone know why they discontinued that radio? It looks like it was awesome!

From what I can tell the FT-2DR is the next logical step, but it is a $300 HT. Not really sure if I "need" to go beyond my FT-60 (thanks subzalli) based on my limited skills. The FT-2DR can do a lot, and folks seem to be excited about Fusion, which I do not know how to use.

Can any of you more experienced folks offer some perspective? It looks like you used to be able to get the FT-1 for less than $250. I could see swinging that, but 3 bills for the FT-2 has me thinking that I do not know enough to justify...

 

[DaveInDenver]

The questions to ask yourself:

1. Do you plan on using APRS handheld?
2. Do you plan on using Yaesu Fusion?
3. Do you need a dual band handheld?
4. Do you need a dual VFO handheld?

My recommendations would be as follows.

On #2 first. Fusion is one of the digital modes being used currently. It is gaining some use but there's no clear choice like FM was for analog. Some are using DMR, some are still using D-STAR. Yaesu has some people using it but my impression is most Fusion radios, especially handheld ones, are using as wireless microphones to digital hotspots, not primarily as a digital radio for simplex or even repeaters. Several members have Fusion radios (FTM-400) and maybe they can give you some feedback as to how much they use digital modes. I personally use DMR radios at the moment and up in northern Colorado DMR is easily the most supported. The NCARC guys (look up W0DMR) use the heck out of it and Rocky Mountain Ham's state-wide RF IP network is based on DMR primarily.

If you have no idea what I mean in the previous paragraph, you do not need Fusion and aren't really yet ready to embrace digital radio without some more discussion.

On #3 and #4, that's a functional question. A dual band radio is handy, giving you the option of using VHF and UHF. A dual VFO radio is very handy in a mobile radio but I find it less important in a handheld. Your FT60 is a dual band, single VFO. I have a VX-7R which is dual band, dual VFO and it spends most of its time in single VFO mode. Not an important feature IMO unless...

On #1 you want to actually do APRS handheld. Most APRS stations are either mobile or fixed. Some people use APRS while hiking or walking around, though. Absolutely legitimate use. If you do that you can build an APRS station using a Mobilinkd TNC and any HT. I have a Mobilinkd that I can use with a VX-7R and the combination is reasonably small and light. I also have a little data radio with a Argent Data TNC stuffed inside that only needs a GPS position and a battery pack to beacon positions.

The FT1DR and similar FT2DR, Kenwood TH-D72 and TH-D74 are dual band, dual VFO that let you put APRS on the secondary side. That I cannot do with my VX-7R at all. If I want to beacon APRS positions and talk I'd have to carry two radios.

But the Mobilinkd does let you pair with a tablet or phone via Bluetooth and not be forced to use a tiny HT screen for APRS. I suspect the FT1DR and FT2DR APRS is rarely used for any more than position beacons. Which is a huge waste of money when a Mobilinkd + random Chinese handheld will be 1/4th the price and with your phone do a lot more than just position beacons. I think the only radio that would let you maybe interface to a phone or tablet (for APRSdroid) is the TH-D74.

 

[DaveInDenver]

So my specific recommendation would be if you're interested in experimenting with APRS I wouldn't spend the money on a commercial APRS handheld. There's some limitations in the implementations that unless you're experienced and know how to work around mean I think you're dropping a lot of money for no reason.

I'd buy a Mobilinkd TNC2 or TNC3 (only get the TNC3 if you want to pair with an Apple device, if you have Android get the TNC2) and either use your current HT or buy a new basic HT (like an FT-25R or Alinco DJ-500) for it and go from there.

This plus APRSdroid is for all intents a full APRS station. I use the offline/OSM version of the app so it's completely independent of needing cell or WiFi service.

 

[PabloCruise]

The questions to ask yourself:

1. Do you plan on using APRS handheld?
2. Do you plan on using Yaesu Fusion?
3. Do you need a dual band handheld?
4. Do you need a dual VFO handheld?

My recommendations would be as follows.

On #2 first. Fusion is one of the digital modes being used currently. It is gaining some use but there's no clear choice like FM was for analog. Some are using DMR, some are still using D-STAR. Yaesu has some people using it but my impression is most Fusion radios, especially handheld ones, are using as wireless microphones to digital hotspots, not primarily as a digital radio for simplex or even repeaters. Several members have Fusion radios (FTM-400) and maybe they can give you some feedback as to how much they use digital modes. I personally use DMR radios at the moment and up in northern Colorado DMR is easily the most supported. The NCARC guys (look up W0DMR) use the heck out of it and Rocky Mountain Ham's state-wide RF IP network is based on DMR primarily.

If you have no idea what I mean in the previous paragraph, you do not need Fusion and aren't really yet ready to embrace digital radio without some more discussion.

On #3 and #4, that's a functional question. A dual band radio is handy, giving you the option of using VHF and UHF. A dual VFO radio is very handy in a mobile radio but I find it less important in a handheld. Your FT60 is a dual band, single VFO. I have a VX-7R which is dual band, dual VFO and it spends most of its time in single VFO mode. Not an important feature IMO unless...

On #1 you want to actually do APRS handheld. Most APRS stations are either mobile or fixed. Some people use APRS while hiking or walking around, though. Absolutely legitimate use. If you do that you can build an APRS station using a Mobilinkd TNC and any HT. I have a Mobilinkd that I can use with a VX-7R and the combination is reasonably small and light. I also have a little data radio with a Argent Data TNC stuffed inside that only needs a GPS position and a battery pack to beacon positions.

The FT1DR and similar FT2DR, Kenwood TH-D72 and TH-D74 are dual band, dual VFO that let you put APRS on the secondary side. That I cannot do with my VX-7R at all. If I want to beacon APRS positions and talk I'd have to carry two radios.

But the Mobilinkd does let you pair with a tablet or phone via Bluetooth and not be forced to use a tiny HT screen for APRS. I suspect the FT1DR and FT2DR APRS is rarely used for any more than position beacons. Which is a huge waste of money when a Mobilinkd + random Chinese handheld will be 1/4th the price and with your phone do a lot more than just position beacons. I think the only radio that would let you maybe interface to a phone or tablet (for APRSdroid) is the TH-D74.

Thanks Dave, your posts are always very useful.

In answer to your questions:
1. Yes
2-4. Not sure...

I think you have convinced me that I can do a lot with with my FT-60 and the Mobilinkd plus a tablet device. More novice questions ahead - the tablet or smartphone is used to provide GPS location, yes? Can one send basic texts through the phone/tablet via Mobilinkd as well? Those were the things I thought was pretty interesting about APRS, which in turn got me interested in amateur radio.

Am I stuck making my own cable to go Mobilinkd to FT-60?

Thanks again Dave, the Mobilinkd looks very cool.

 

[DaveInDenver]

In a Mobilinkd TNC set up the position is based on what APRSdroid (or other APRS software) has, which is usually based on the phone's GPS. That's the most typical use of them. There are other ways to use a Mobilinkd but it is at root a pretty simple device, not even really a TNC but really more properly called a modem.

A true TNC could construct and parse packets itself but the Mobilinkd lacks any ability to much autonomously like a Byonics Tinytrak or Argent Data Tracker can. It's more similar to a Rigblaster or Signalink USB, if you perhaps have seen them. The software does most of the work and the modem just interfaces the radio to the computer or device.

 

[PabloCruise]

For better or worse, I am on iOS. Is there an app that will work with the Mobilinkd TNC3?

 

[DaveInDenver]

For better or worse, I am on iOS. Is there an app that will work with the Mobilinkd TNC3?

There is an app written by Heikki Hannikainen called "aprs.fi" that can interface with the TNC3 directly. It uses online maps so is of not much use when you don't have cell service but otherwise lets you see other packets and send position packets out. It doesn't yet do messaging. I don't know of any other apps.

 

[PabloCruise]

There is an app written by Heikki Hannikainen called "aprs.fi" that can interface with the TNC3 directly. It uses online maps so is of not much use when you don't have cell service but otherwise lets you see other packets and send position packets out. It doesn't yet do messaging. I don't know of any other apps.

Wow. So I am stuck with either no function, or buying another piece of hardware - Android tablet w/ GPS. That is disappointing.

My main interest in APRS is for times when I am not in cell coverage.

Any recommendations?

Thanks Dave.

 

[PabloCruise]

At the risk of being annoying, does anyone know anything about APRS pro? http://aprspro.com/v1/

Runs on iOS and uses your phone as the TNC modem. So if I understand correctly that would eliminate the Mobilinkd TNC piece of hardware?

Not sure if this is a complete turd...

 

[DaveInDenver]

It's always been possible to do AFSK using your phone's headphone and mic interfaces to a radio. I think APRSdroid can do that, having the AX.25 packet protocol built-in. It's mimicking what is know as a Bell 202 modem.

The problem is the radio only knows how to key the transmitter using the VOX functionality. The phone can't operate the PTT key unless you build an external circuit to do that. That's one of the functions a TNC handles for you. So it's pretty sensitive getting the VOX right, the audio and squelch right and the phone's speaker volume right to reliably decode and transmit packets.

You can run the squelch open with a TNC and still key the PTT without stomping on other packets or garbling your own. The timing never gets screwed up.

 

[AimCOTaco]

I have a Mobilinkd TNC2 that I use with an FT-50r and an android tablet. I also have an FT1D.

The Moblinked set up I use for my primary Truck APRS with an external hard mount antenna. I use the FT1D as my primary handheld and portable set up for other vehicles or wandering around.

I'd not be to keen on using the iphone as the TNC with apple going away from the audio port but if you have one with an audio jack now it would be a great way to try APRS.

All of my set-ups have some compromises. The FT1D has far better APRS receive performance than the FT-50 - mobilinkd and part of the difference I'm certain is the audio path (the cable, connectors, levels, A-to-D, EMI, etc, etc). I suspect a phone to radio audio link would be worse still. The FT1D is my best APRS receiver but has no map and typing out a message is a long exercise (at least it's 1 device instead of 3).

APRS is fun and convinient on the trail and adds some great emergency com potential. If emergency coverage is the primary application you may want to consider Garmin Inreach as well.

 

[PabloCruise]

I thank you all for your patience guiding me through the learning curve that is APRS. Clearly the logical choice if I want to use anything out of cell coverage is running APRSdroid.

Too bad that APRS.fi is stuck with online maps. I do have ScenicMap on my phone, could APRS.fi use those maps? I will assume "No", unless I hear otherwise...

Thinking about the Yaesu FT-60 to Mobilinkd TNC2 to an Android tablet running APRSdroid, is there a "classic" tablet that has GPS + Bluetooth and will play well with the TNC2?

On the Mobilinkd site, I do not see a cable for the FT-60. Am I stuck making my own?

Thank you all again. I feel like I am learning a new language...

 

[DaveInDenver]

No idea about tablets. I'm using an old Motorola Droid Maxx running super old Android 4. The only problem I have with it is being 16 GB is very limiting for storage since I'm also trying to run navigation on it. The generic complete U.S. map KS9N built for APRSdroid is 2.5 GB and I don't have space for it. I extracted a custom map for it but it only covers 4 states.

I'd be able to save about 300 MB if Android had symbolic linking functionality. Then I could just point APRSdroid to the shared maps I use for Backcountry Navigator and Oruxmaps.

The aprs.fi app on iOS uses Apple Maps (like Google Maps), online only AFAIK. I don't think there is an APRS app of any kind for iPhones/iPads that uses stored offline maps. The only one that knows anything about TNCs is aprs.fi, the rest use APRS-IS (useless for us) or use AFSK. That's a valid but truly hacked (and probably finicky) solution.

The FT-60R uses Mobilinkd's regular non-threaded, right angle HT cable.

https://store.mobilinkd.com/collections/tnc-cables/products/tnc-cable-for-yaesu-vx-5r

 

[PabloCruise]

At this point I am wondering if a better title for this thread would be "APRS for Beginners"? Any concerns if I edit?

Does APRSdroid have a map included? Or do I need KS9N's map to add?

Shared maps would be cool, but of course ScenicMap is only for iOS, so I am starting over anyway.

Thanks Dave.

 

[DaveInDenver]

At this point I am wondering if a better title for this thread would be "APRS for Beginners"? Any concerns if I edit?

Maybe it would be a better choice, makes sense to me.

Does APRSdroid have a map included? Or do I need KS9N's map to add?

The APRSdroid downloaded from Google Play uses online Google Maps, so sort of yes it would have an included map, if you have Internet connectivity and let it cache maps.

However if you want to use offline maps you must download and directly install a different version that comes from the experimental builds. Specifically, you want the "_osm" version.

https://aprsdroid.org/download/builds/

This build can render OSM maps compiled in the mapsforge format (usually they have a ".map" file extension). You can use maps from any source, KS9N downloaded the complete U.S. OSM database a couple of years ago and built a map for APRSdroid from it. Apparently took a week to compile. Anyway, ended up with a 2.5 GB file you can use.

The best way to get this is find the torrent magnet but I think there's direct downloads, too.

That's not the only maps, though. I'm using a map extracted through a BBBike build.

https://extract.bbbike.org
https://www.openandromaps.org
http://ftp-stud.hs-esslingen.de/pub/Mirrors/download.mapsforge.org/maps/v5/

But any mapsforge pre-compiled map will work, just have to name it "aprsdroid.map".

 

[AimCOTaco]

I'm using a Samsung T320 tablet I think. It's a little older but checks the boxes for this (GPS, Bluetooth, android).

You'd still have to download the maps for offline mapping, it will cache maps though as is so I have been getting map data when I'm online and use APRS as an overview map without issue but I use other tools for primary navigation.

 

[PabloCruise]

You guys are awesome - thank you for your help!

I went ahead and edited the title of this thread in the hope that it may help others interested in learning how to get started on APRS.

 

[PabloCruise]

The FT-60R uses Mobilinkd's regular non-threaded, right angle HT cable.

https://store.mobilinkd.com/collections/tnc-cables/products/tnc-cable-for-yaesu-vx-5r

This is great - one step closer! Thank you.

 

[nakman]

Well shoot, I was ignoring this thread until the title change, now I'm reminded again just how little I know! thanks dudes.

 

[PabloCruise]

Well shoot, I was ignoring this thread until the title change, now I'm reminded again just how little I know! thanks dudes.

Happy to help Tim! Ignorance loves company...