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Shouldn't the "Politics and Controversial Topics" be a public forum?

stusic

Land Use Coordinator
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Oct 11, 2019
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577
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Denver, CO
If the Rising Sun organization is made up of its members, shouldn't the Politics and Controversial Topics forum be public so potential members can get an idea of the thoughts, philosophies, and ideals behind its current members?

Although other non-wheeling forums, like ham, photography, and biking are open to the public, the political forum is not. I think if the statements made by its members are genuine, they'd have no issue with making them available to the public and potential members.
 

Romer

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No, I do not feel it should be a public Forum. This is a safe place to vent. Lots of internet bots including from other countries mining for data.

Are you saying my post wasn't genuine? If I wanted it out there for the world I would have put it on facebook
 

stusic

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Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
577
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Denver, CO
Are you saying my post wasn't genuine? If I wanted it out there for the world I would have put it on facebook
I'm not saying anyone isn't sincere. I'm saying if anyone truly means what they say, then they should be willing to post it publicly instead of, from what I see, apparently preaching to the (closed) choir.

I came here for Toyota Land Cruisers and the charitable contributions that an organized group of owners can provide. If Rising Sun condones and protects the incompassionate attitudes I've seen, then maybe this isn't the place for me.

While it probably doesn't bode well for my request, had I heard the hateful shit in the other thread, I would have reconsidered my membership.

@dan1554 Why the sad face? Isn't any effort to be more transparent a good thing?

BIG 73
 

stusic

Land Use Coordinator
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
577
Location
Denver, CO
I ageee that it shouldn’t be public. We are a Cruiser club. Logical to leave the Cruiser content public. We have plenty of other private forums as well
By that logiccc, make the ham, biking and photography private then?
 

Romer

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You seem to be pretty aggressive with your opinions on how things should be. Maybe you haven't noticed but in this and the other thread your posts come across as you know better than everyone else and anyone who disagrees just doesn't get it.

why do you get to decide if I am sincere or not by agreeing to post something public? I am not seeing preaching, I am seeing venting and the ability to discuss ones opinions amongst friends. Public discussions like this tend to bring on the trolls

maybe in the other thread you could better express what you feel are the posts that offend you with specifics rather than emotion and you may be surprised to find out you are not interpreting things they way they were intended. Stuckinthe80's tried to tell you that, but you put the onus back on everyone else. Have you never said something that was not interpreted how you meant it?
 
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Stuckinthe80s

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Lakewood, CO
.....so potential members can get an idea of the thoughts, philosophies, and ideals behind its current members?
And that is the irony of it. A potential member isn't going to get a good representation of the club from the few people who post in the political section. Instead, they will more than likely make assumptions on the average member based on the comments of a few individuals. I agree that people should think a little bit before they post statements that can be misconstrued so that they don't have to explain themselves better but that is going to be in any situation in life. If we all did that a little bit more AND gave our fellow humans the benefit of the doubt a little bit more, maybe there wouldn't be so much anger towards each other.

There are over 80 members in RS and someone shouldn't make an assumption about the general population of the club just based on a few individual's comments.
 

AimCOTaco

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I don't want it changed to public because the private sub-forums are just that, private conversations that don't concern the public.
We moderate the public sections to be aligned with our clubs stated values (like TREAD, Stay the Trail, etc) and that's not possible with the politics section where our values are less settled and NOT a primary focus of our club.

As a 4x4 club, our 4x4 activities should be most prominent and public. The private subs are intended to UNITE membership through exploration of other topics of common interest like they do for ham, 2-wheelers, etc. The political sub is full open nasty and shouldn't be made public.

The politics forum is a place to go if you want to play there but I also see it as a place to store crap as that we need to moderate by moving away from the public space.
 

Hulk

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If the Rising Sun organization is made up of its members, shouldn't the Politics and Controversial Topics forum be public so potential members can get an idea of the thoughts, philosophies, and ideals behind its current members?

Although other non-wheeling forums, like ham, photography, and biking are open to the public, the political forum is not. I think if the statements made by its members are genuine, they'd have no issue with making them available to the public and potential members.

There is history here.

When I joined RS in 2000, we had two communication methods: the monthly in-person meeting and a printed newsletter. The next year, I started an email list which helped the club grow and organize more runs. A couple years later, another member (@Kipper) set up our first online forum. It was great and quickly replaced the email list. That early forum lasted about 2 years before it was hacked and we lost nearly everything. In 2005, we voted to invest in better forum software (vBulletin at the time) and launched the forum you see now. You can see the first thread here. Many of the people who posted in that thread are still here.

The club brings together a diverse group of smart, capable people. It seems like if you are interested in old, insanely-overbuilt Japanese 4WD vehicles, there is something unique about you — you're smarter, less likely to echo the talking points of your favorite political party before engaging your brain, more technically minded, and a good person. For many of us, this club has been an ongoing group of great friends who have shared many trips, many laughs, many beers, and both good and sad life events. I've sat at the RS table at weddings and attended the funeral of a RS member who lost his battle with leukemia. Many of my best friendships formed because of this club. The online forum facilitated communication, but the friendships formed in person. There is a reason that we have a number of regular forum participants who long ago moved away from the Denver area -- it's where their friends hang out.

A few years after we launched the current forum, we noticed that a few folks liked to argue about politics. They'd really get into it, couldn't be swayed by the strongest opposing argument, and thought everyone else was a damn idiot if they didn't agree. The conversations would get heated, and it started to change the overall tenor of our club forum in a way that worried many of us. We're a local club with a forum that helps us plan our runs, our meetings, our camping trips, and when we should all meet for breakfast. We're not an online-only forum where people can go to be online truth & justice warriors. So we decided to move all the political debate into a single section of the forum. You could participate if you wanted to, or you could ignore that section of the forum and be reasonably confident that the rest of the forum was about Toyota trucks, upcoming runs, trail cleanups, stupid memes, whiskey recommendations, and non-confrontational stuff.

We know we don't all share the exact same opinions. But we love the friendships (and vehicles) way more than we care about anyone's stance on a political issue. When we are drinking beer around the campfire, the differences melt away and we realize we have more in common than not. We tolerate and celebrate each other rather than trying to grind away at the exact words that someone used when they typed something on the forum at midnight after 4 beers and didn't articulate their thoughts perfectly.

Moving the rancorous discussions to the Politics and Controversial Topics forum solved the problem and focused the rest of the forum back on our local club. Most of us avoid this section, honestly. It's not what this club is about.

If you want to go be an online justice warrior and use "fightin' words" and sit in righteous judgement of the poor words someone used to express an opinion, I would suggest you visit Reddit or somewhere else. I don't know where else since I avoid political websites like sharp scissors near my penis.

So no: we won't be moving the Politics and Controversial Topics forum into the public view. It would be more likely that we would completely delete it or shut it down than make it public. That's not what this club is about. We're here to make friends, have fun, talk about trucks, actually drive the trucks on trails, and do something worthwhile from time to time, like our trail cleanup runs on our adopted trails.

Come out to the BOWAGW Run tomorrow. We'll have fun on the trail and then go eat pizza, paid for by the club. No one will be debating gun laws or suggesting how to solve the homeless problem downtown. But we will talk about sliders and turbochargers and full-floating axles and why delicious hoppy beer makes everything better. Life is way better when you are not behind a keyboard.
 

Hulk

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RicardoJM

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... I came here for Toyota Land Cruisers and the charitable contributions that an organized group of owners can provide. If Rising Sun condones and protects the incompassionate attitudes I've seen, then maybe this isn't the place for me. ....

I have not been a dues paying member for a few years now and no longer have access to the members only sub forums. Even when I did have access, I never frequented to Politics sub forum - it was of no interest to me how others felt about that stuff. I spent most of my time in General Tech sub-forum. Back in the day, I came to the Rising Sun because I bought an FJ40 that needed some work and I wanted to learn more about wrenching and the club had people that could help me with that.

While I went on several wheeling runs, I've never been to Cruise Moab. I have participated in a bunch of wrenching (and even organized a few) sessions over the years. I have learned a ton with Rising Sun people. Some of those people likely have very different moral, political, religious views than me. That said, never did anyone vet me on these subjects prior to helping me and I never saw it come up when dealing with a break down on the trail.

While I am not as active in the month to month activities, I frequent the forum pretty much daily. Every now and then I still find an opportunity to help someone but mostly I enjoy catching up on what people are doing with their rigs and reading posts where help is needed and provided.

The point this post I am trying to make is everyone's experience with the Rising Sun is not the same. If you are into "Toyota Land Cruisers and the charitable contributions that an organized group of owners can provide" - I am pretty confident you are in the right place if you choose to shape your efforts/expectations on engaging in those experiences.
 

RDub

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Feb 9, 2021
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245
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Boulder, CO
What are the criteria around access to a forum that is private versus public? I ask only because I am not a dues paying member of RS (hope to be) but I appear to have full access to the Politics... sub-forum. Really just curious...
 

Inukshuk

Rising Sun Member
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Aug 24, 2005
Messages
7,271
Location
Denver, CO
Unlike online-only situations, I value that the Club gives me a place to actually know people I may disagree with on controversial subjects. I have never found someone so inappropriate as to warrant expulsion. If I did, I'd say so. I am fully PC and also centrist in my views.

I have never met a club member who was disrespectful in their disagreement.

I have met club members who listened to me if I had cause to reach out - which I usually do with phone call - and share why their view might be considered or was undeniably offensive. Then in turn I listened to them. We both learned.

"I think if the statements made by its members are genuine, they'd have no issue with making them available to the public and potential members." I fully disagree with this reasoning. Public presentation is not a measure of genuineness. Its merely public. I concede people are more offensive in private. That is good and bad.

RE: "incompassionate attitudes [you]'ve seen" - have you asked that member to meet and talk, or go on a trail and understand where they come from, learn from them and/or give them the chance to learn from you?

"Had I heard the hateful shit in the other thread, I would have reconsidered my membership." And at that time you would only have had an anonymous post. If I think a post is inappropriate, I take direct action. Mods and officers can attest to that.

"Isn't any effort to be more transparent a good thing?" No. People also benefit from private space to express themselves free from random critics. In such private space no one should ever tolerate hate, and should address it immediately unless there is a safety issue, in which case involve people who can help.

"The political sub is full open nasty and shouldn't be made public." I do not go there much, but if it is, then I would like to see us take steps to make sure it stays civil.
 

Inukshuk

Rising Sun Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
7,271
Location
Denver, CO
What are the criteria around access to a forum that is private versus public? I ask only because I am not a dues paying member of RS (hope to be) but I appear to have full access to the Politics... sub-forum. Really just curious...
Being a dues paying member.
 

3rdGen4R

Cruise Moab Committee
Cruise Moab Committee
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,514
Location
Littleton, CO
If the Rising Sun organization is made up of its members, shouldn't the Politics and Controversial Topics forum be public so potential members can get an idea of the thoughts, philosophies, and ideals behind its current members?

Although other non-wheeling forums, like ham, photography, and biking are open to the public, the political forum is not. I think if the statements made by its members are genuine, they'd have no issue with making them available to the public and potential members.
So you seem to have a personal grind to grind here.

Listen, people come from different points of view and think about things differently. I cannot tell you how many times I wanted to respond to the forum but held back and just decided it may not be worth wild.

There are different points of views in this club on a range of things and part of being in this club is that it’s built a literal institution where it doesn’t seek to be exclusive but inclusive towards different points of views.

You can tell me to run off if you want, but I would suggest just putting the forum down for a week and come back. Give people the benefit of doubt and assume they are good people.

I’ve lived in Colorado my whole life and things are changing, people take change differently and adjust differently to it.

So no, not everything on this forum needs to share there perspective on everyone for everyone in the world to see.

I’m not going to respond to any other messages, but I hope you stick around and see that our members are a group of people that do care for each other.
 

stusic

Land Use Coordinator
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
577
Location
Denver, CO
There is history here.

When I joined RS in 2000, we had two communication methods: the monthly in-person meeting and a printed newsletter. The next year, I started an email list which helped the club grow and organize more runs. A couple years later, another member (@Kipper) set up our first online forum. It was great and quickly replaced the email list. That early forum lasted about 2 years before it was hacked and we lost nearly everything. In 2005, we voted to invest in better forum software (vBulletin at the time) and launched the forum you see now. You can see the first thread here. Many of the people who posted in that thread are still here.

The club brings together a diverse group of smart, capable people. It seems like if you are interested in old, insanely-overbuilt Japanese 4WD vehicles, there is something unique about you — you're smarter, less likely to echo the talking points of your favorite political party before engaging your brain, more technically minded, and a good person. For many of us, this club has been an ongoing group of great friends who have shared many trips, many laughs, many beers, and both good and sad life events. I've sat at the RS table at weddings and attended the funeral of a RS member who lost his battle with leukemia. Many of my best friendships formed because of this club. The online forum facilitated communication, but the friendships formed in person. There is a reason that we have a number of regular forum participants who long ago moved away from the Denver area -- it's where their friends hang out.

A few years after we launched the current forum, we noticed that a few folks liked to argue about politics. They'd really get into it, couldn't be swayed by the strongest opposing argument, and thought everyone else was a damn idiot if they didn't agree. The conversations would get heated, and it started to change the overall tenor of our club forum in a way that worried many of us. We're a local club with a forum that helps us plan our runs, our meetings, our camping trips, and when we should all meet for breakfast. We're not an online-only forum where people can go to be online truth & justice warriors. So we decided to move all the political debate into a single section of the forum. You could participate if you wanted to, or you could ignore that section of the forum and be reasonably confident that the rest of the forum was about Toyota trucks, upcoming runs, trail cleanups, stupid memes, whiskey recommendations, and non-confrontational stuff.

We know we don't all share the exact same opinions. But we love the friendships (and vehicles) way more than we care about anyone's stance on a political issue. When we are drinking beer around the campfire, the differences melt away and we realize we have more in common than not. We tolerate and celebrate each other rather than trying to grind away at the exact words that someone used when they typed something on the forum at midnight after 4 beers and didn't articulate their thoughts perfectly.

Moving the rancorous discussions to the Politics and Controversial Topics forum solved the problem and focused the rest of the forum back on our local club. Most of us avoid this section, honestly. It's not what this club is about.

If you want to go be an online justice warrior and use "fightin' words" and sit in righteous judgement of the poor words someone used to express an opinion, I would suggest you visit Reddit or somewhere else. I don't know where else since I avoid political websites like sharp scissors near my penis.

So no: we won't be moving the Politics and Controversial Topics forum into the public view. It would be more likely that we would completely delete it or shut it down than make it public. That's not what this club is about. We're here to make friends, have fun, talk about trucks, actually drive the trucks on trails, and do something worthwhile from time to time, like our trail cleanup runs on our adopted trails.

Come out to the BOWAGW Run tomorrow. We'll have fun on the trail and then go eat pizza, paid for by the club. No one will be debating gun laws or suggesting how to solve the homeless problem downtown. But we will talk about sliders and turbochargers and full-floating axles and why delicious hoppy beer makes everything better. Life is way better when you are not behind a keyboard.
I appreciate your sentiment. However, while I do like the club as a whole, I pay attention to who I associate myself with. Whether we're talking politics or Toyotas, I still may know the where the person sitting next to me at the campfire stands on certain issues. And if those stances disgust me, I don't want to be there no matter the topic of conversation. I won't allow myself to ignore it.

Rising Sun has a long history that will surely continue on long after I've left. There's a lot of clubs doing a lot of great things and I'm sure there's one for everybody, but I'm doubting RS is the one for me.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 

Hulk

RS Webmaster
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Cruise Moab Committee
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Messages
16,431
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Centennial
What are the criteria around access to a forum that is private versus public? I ask only because I am not a dues paying member of RS (hope to be) but I appear to have full access to the Politics... sub-forum. Really just curious...

Being a dues paying member.

Actually, you just need to be registered and logged into the forum to see the Politics and Controversial Topics forum. It's not members only. It's only hidden to those who never bother to register on the forum.
 
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